Eric: [00:00:00] Welcome to episode 65 of the Achieve Workplace Culture Podcast, where we help you find actionable ways to strengthen your workplace culture. Today we're gonna talk about an interesting one. We often talk about engagement, but today we're gonna talk about disengagement, uhhuh. We're gonna talk about disengagement from a couple of perspectives.

We're gonna ask the question, is it possible to get somebody from disengagement back to engagement or. Is it okay sometimes to move further into disengagement, to separation from the workplace? And talk a bit about both ends of that spectrum and how you know what you should be doing and how to do how, how to do those things.

I'm Eric Stutzman, by the way. I'm joined with my two co-host, Chris Downey and Wendy Lowen. How are you doing as you're thinking about this particular conversation?

Wendy: I'm really looking forward to it. 'cause I think it's a really important one.

Eric: Yeah.

Wendy: And, uh, it's, it's a kind conversation that we need to have, one that needs [00:01:00] to, I think needs to happen more often.

Eric: Hmm. Mm-hmm.

Chris: I'm looking forward to this engaging conversation,

Eric: this engaging conversation. Great.

Chris: Yeah,

Eric: I'm really curious too, to see where the conversations are gonna go today. Right. I guess maybe it might be interesting to start with this particular question. Have you ever. I either personally felt disengaged and then moved back into engagement or felt disengaged and moved towards something else and left a workplace.

And just personally, is that an experience that either of you have had?

Chris: Uh, for sure I have, uh, I have had moments where I've been disengaged,

Eric: uhhuh

Chris: and switched to engaged in one conversation.

Eric: Wow. Yeah.

Chris: And I have also had moments of doubt

Eric: uhhuh

Chris: that in a conversation have shifted me.

Eric: Mm-hmm. Right.

Chris: Further into disengaged.

Eric: Yes.

Chris: Um, so yeah, I've had, I've, I've, I've went from one to the other almost [00:02:00] instantly.

Eric: Yeah.

Chris: And deeper,

Eric: yeah.

Chris: Uh, quickly as well for sure. And, and as well, gradually over time, I will say this though, engagement for me to, to disengagement, to engagement that really. How can that can, that can happen quickly.

Eric: Uhhuh

Chris: um, disengagement sometimes can happen very quickly as well. Yes, it can, but other times it can happen very, very gradually. Yeah. Yeah. Almost undetectable until all of a sudden, like, how did I get here? Yeah.

Wendy: Yeah. For myself, the situation that I thought of was, I remember working on a longstanding project that ran over many years, and there was one point where we'd been burning the midnight oil.

And there was a long road ahead of us and I really started to doubt my own ability and capacity mm-hmm. To complete the project mm-hmm. With and to do it really well.

Chris: Yep.

Wendy: And I had a few conversations with, uh, another lead on the project and with my mom

Chris: mm-hmm.

Wendy: Of all people who just really affirmed capacity and commitment.

And I had the [00:03:00] same experience where it wasn't just one conversation, but it was a few short conversations that got me grounded and allowed me to just really. Reengage.

Chris: Yeah.

Wendy: And to think about the pressure and my lack of engagement as being, not a lack of ability, but a lack of confidence and that I had the capacity to do the work.

Chris: Mm-hmm. Interesting.

Wendy: But I, the other thing that jumped to mind is, I do remember this was several years ago, um, a quarterly review where somebody shared their own level of disengagement with the work. And it had been something that we had noticed over many, many months, and they brought it to the table, but there were personal circumstances going on.

Mm-hmm. And they really asked for Grace and the support of the leadership team and then also the team that they worked with. That's, and so that's amazing. There was space given and, and Yeah. A turnaround, but, but it was, it much longer. [00:04:00]

Eric: Yeah, and that's an interesting example, Wendy, because you're talking about how our personal lives affect our work lives, and sometimes it's hard to care so much about the work I'm doing when I'm stressed and focused on what's happening in my personal life.

This person, in some ways, I, I don't know the exact story that you're referring to here, but if I were to hunch about what was going on, it's, it's not so much that they. It didn't like their work or they didn't want to do their work, they recognized they couldn't do it as well. 'cause they were focused somewhere else.

Yes. Is that

Wendy: Yes, yes. Emotionally, mentally, physically. Just a matter of time, mental space. Yes. In particular. Mm-hmm. Uh, yeah. What they were dealing with was pretty all consuming.

Eric: And how did you get that situation to turn around or how did they get that situation to turn around?

Wendy: I think with some clear.

Supports actually. Okay. Right. Uh, and some clear accommodations. What do you need to do

Eric: Uhhuh?

Wendy: And for the team to come around and say, okay, what are, what are for [00:05:00] this more toward this period of time?

Eric: Yeah.

Wendy: What are the basic expectations that we have of this individual? Because there still needs to be a level of Sure.

Performance. Yes, there does. Yeah. And we can, you know, for a period of time, say, okay, we can lower the bar, but there needs to be a level of accountability that you're gonna work. Yes. Whatever that means for you in your personal life, but it can't go on long term. Right. Because we're also safeguarding Yeah.

The integrity of the team and their ability to perform.

Chris: Um, a absolutely. And one of the things that's really important there when he, there was safety for that individual to bring that up. I think one of the things that's important, we think about when someone disengages mm-hmm. That's all they, that has happened.

Eric: Right?

Chris: There's nothing wrong with them. Hmm. Right. This is often what happens when engagement kind of goes down and people aren't feeling good about the work. Mm-hmm. We have a tendency to assume there's, it's an issue with them. Right. And, and the reason it's [00:06:00] so important is often when engagement goes down, they themselves are saying, what's wrong with me?

Eric: Right.

Chris: And that's a really dangerous spot to be in, not just as an employee, as a human being. We don't want to be asking what's wrong with us because when we're not engaged in a moment, that doesn't mean the ability to be engaged isn't within us.

Eric: Right.

Chris: We're just not connected right now to that thing.

And something you brought up before Eric, about, you know, there's, or you mentioned there's. Maybe they aren't engaged with the work and what it brings anymore.

Eric: Right?

Chris: And that's okay.

Eric: Yes.

Chris: If, if that's the case, okay, what would be engaging for you and how can we help you get there, even if that's out, but we can support that.

Eric: Yeah.

Chris: But more often than not, and I really believe this is, you find, okay, so you're not connecting with this,

Eric: right?

Chris: Let's take a look. What do you need in order to, to feel better, to do better? And once we connect to that, then we turn to our office, our work environment and go, whoa, there's so many opportunities to this or that.[00:07:00]

Right? But it's understanding what is the source of engagement for that individual. Like the true motivation.

Eric: Hmm.

Chris: Because often we'll talk about it, motivation at a task level.

Eric: Mm-hmm.

Chris: It's not about that. In many cases there's something else.

Eric: Yes.

Chris: And once we understand, that's something else. Then it opens up a world of opportunities that they might not have seen.

But we can't get there without dialogue, which is what you, you happen to do with that individual.

Eric: Yeah.

Wendy: Can I, I do agree. Sure. But I also think there is a point in time where we don't wanna be to back up just a little bit. We don't wanna be saying what's wrong with them. Right. We don't want them to be thinking and feeling.

Mm-hmm. What's wrong with me? Mm-hmm. But sometimes there is a misalignment with the task and the expectations. Sure. And the individual that has been asked to do that role. Yes, there is. Yeah. And so there does become a point where we say, maybe we do need to disengage.

Chris: Oh, I agree. Yeah. I I I'm not saying that that's the [00:08:00] point.

I'm saying we being a collective tend to jump to that.

Wendy: Yes.

Chris: Often a bit prematurely and. We need to understand what, what's going on with that individual before we make that decision. And it's easy to say, oh, they don't like that task. They're, that's not motivating for them,

Eric: or they don't care.

Chris: We wanna get to, we understand it and then we can make a decis with, with them.

I think this is the key.

Eric: Mm-hmm.

Chris: With them.

Eric: Make it with them. '

Chris: cause generally no one wants to be doing a job.

Eric: Yes.

Chris: That is like. Soul sucking. Right. That is just draining to them, not for a long period of time. So if we can create capacity and we understand that, then we can look to our environment, where are the opportunities to engage them?

And if they aren't there, okay, then where, where else would you, you know what I mean? And then even if that's someone wants to change careers, go into real estate. Okay, great. You're working here. Now we know you have a goal to go into real estate. How can we help [00:09:00] you achieve that goal?

Eric: Yeah. Yes.

Chris: What are some things we can do here to develop you, to get you, you know, there's so much we can, we can do.

Eric: Uh, there is, and I I think back to a, a real life example where I was the manager, right? And I had hired somebody who, um, had incorrect expectations about what the job was. And that's on me,

Chris: right?

Eric: And our hiring process, this was very early on when I was working here for Achieve. We hired someone and they thought they were gonna do much more like event coordination.

Right. And it had to do with what the title was, public Workshop Coordinator. And they thought they were gonna be like, out there doing events, you know, and what their job was, was quite a lot different than that. It was more like a customer service representative and they, they were a bright individual, but they were so unhappy.

Mm-hmm. And I could see it after about two months. Mm-hmm. And I remember going for a walk with her, uh, down the street and just asking her, she said, I just. I wanna do something else. It's like, great. Well thank you for telling us [00:10:00] we don't have that something else here, but can I help you figure out where that something else is?

Right? Yeah. And over the course of a month or two, she stayed around, did the job while she looked for something else, was able to transition into a different job, uh, at a different employer. Yep. Um, with our support and that, that process was so good. And I think what really worked was us not saying you're a problem or Right.

Well, you need to leave then. But rather saying, well, what do you wanna do about this? And how can we support you? Yeah. As a person. Person to person. I don't want you to stay here and suffer. That's not good for you or anybody else. Right?

Chris: Yeah.

Eric: And so, you know, depending on the size of our teams or workplaces, sometimes we don't have the kind of work that is most engaging for someone.

So what can we do about that? Maybe. Maybe it's training, maybe it's helping them find something else. But we should never blame the other person for that. No. Instead we should work with them about that,

Chris: you know? And part of it is, is helping, [00:11:00] oftentimes we ourselves don't really know what the underlying motivation is.

We often link, oh, I love doing that. Well, you can't always do that, but what's the motivation behind it? And people often don't know that. Right. So actually through exploration, getting to know someone, we as a leader or a peer can pa spot some patterns. Hey, I've noticed when you're in a situation like this

Eric: mm-hmm.

Chris: You're really lit up, you're engaged. And I've noticed this, the task might be the same. I say this 'cause for myself, what I've learned about myself over throughout my career is, and this should be no surprise to either of you, I love to collaborate, Uhhuh love to collaborate. I love like relationships. Like new ones and like longstanding relationships and I love to be creative.

Eric: Mm-hmm.

Chris: Love it. And come up with just fresh ideas. If I'm doing that collaborating, I'm even having fun in the moment. I don't care what I'm doing. I if I, like if I was to plot, if I just said, here's the jobs I've been most [00:12:00] engaged in my career, you'd be like, there's no,

Eric: no relationship,

Chris: no relation to those.

But in all of them I was collaborating.

Eric: Right.

Chris: Right. There was co, there was a relationship component and we even got to be creative and have some fun. The process for me, the job doesn't matter at that point. And I've done that literally taking frozen balls of plasma and reading off numbers in a freezer,

Eric: Uhhuh,

Chris: right?

But, and someone writing it. And I've been totally engaged in that because those things were actually at play.

Wendy: They were alive for

Chris: you and that, and I've also been performing for a, you know, a crowd both incredibly engaging to me that the task has very little to do with it. The task is an i helps us is a like a, it's a, A marker of something more meaningful.

Yeah. I think, and I think we can help with it ourselves and our employees. Figure out what that more meaningful piece is. Once we connect with that, think about it. For me, collaboration, relationships, being creative, there's all sorts of opportunities for me to do that. Mm-hmm.

Eric: Mm-hmm.

Chris: Well, here for sure. But even just in the world, what a gift that was for me to, to, [00:13:00] to break through.

And I think with our employees, if we can help people figure that out, what their natural motivators are.

Eric: It's powerful.

Chris: Yeah. It opens up tons of opportunity. Yeah.

Wendy: Well, and you're talking about a real expression of who you are through the work that you're doing, and if there's a mismatch with that, there's going to be disengagement.

Chris: Yeah,

Wendy: and, and we've talked a lot about tasks, but I also think when it comes to engagement, it should be engaging with the values of our organization. Yes. And there are times where it is a true. A mismatch between the values Absolutely. We have as an organization and how we wanna treat each other and how we work together.

That might not be, uh, a right or a wrong, it's just, it is, this is how we have chosen to do things and we have chosen to work here. And I'm thinking of, you know, a situation we had years ago where there was an employee who was not living out our values. There was a, a large incident. And I think we managed that with a [00:14:00] lot of kindness, but we were not going to compromise on the expression of our value.

Mm-hmm. And so it did lead to disengagement. So there's different ways that staff. We employees engage or disengage. It's not just the work. Yeah. It's also living out in the expression of who, what our fingerprint as an organization, what we want that to look like.

Chris: Yeah.

Eric: So how a degree more for, for our listeners as a way to summarize some of this conversation, how do you leave room or handle.

Exits and disengagement with dignity and openness. What, what are the ways we do that? To leave room either for reengagement or moving on to something else? What are some very, you know what, what are the keys to that? Let's name two, three, or four for ourselves and our listeners.

Chris: The first is we need to understand.

Where the individual's at.

Eric: Okay.

Chris: So they're, maybe they aren't engaged and [00:15:00] they even said, I'm, I'm right now, I'm not engaged. Okay. Mm-hmm. Tell me about that. Mm-hmm. We have to understand what's leading to it

Eric: mm-hmm.

Chris: In order to help them through it.

Eric: Okay.

Chris: So it, it starts with seeking to understand

Eric: mm-hmm.

Chris: Where they're at. Mm-hmm. Um, as individuals, just to be clear, this applies on the engaged side too?

Eric: Yes, it does.

Chris: We often create narratives about why people are engaged. You see someone wildly engaged, understand what's behind that,

because.

It might not be what we think. Mm-hmm. So we both apply. Mm-hmm. But let's go back to disengaged.

Make sure we understand where they're at. Mm-hmm. Because we need to understand where they're at in order to help them. Help them through. That's, that would be the first one for me.

Eric: What about you, Andy?

Wendy: Oh, I was just listening so intently to Chris and thinking That's so true. Because for you, the reading of the labels and the freezer.

Chris: Yeah.

Wendy: If the people around you knew what your motivators were, you were saying the task doesn't matter. Right. So you understand. You find out, you know, what is, what are the root causes? Mm-hmm. And then how do you fill that gap? And that's co-created, that's a collaborative [00:16:00] process.

Eric: Yeah. In, in most cases, a collaborate in,

Wendy: yes.

Eric: That's, in most cases, we start, I, I think we should always, um, unless there's been egregious behavior, mis behavior are missed between what they're doing and what the organization values. If that's really egregious, then, then maybe that's different. That's different. That's different. But let's talk about just.

It's not that, but you can tell somebody is disengaged. Um, you, you see it, uh, in how they're behaving.

Chris: Yeah.

Eric: Well, first don't make assumptions, just have a conversation with them as a person.

Chris: Behavior.

Eric: Yeah. Hey, I've noticed this at meetings. You're, you're speaking up less than you used to. I'm curious what's going on for you.

And it's just a simple. Discussion. Yeah. We start there. We look for sources of motivation or the opposite for that person. We talk to them about what they're needing and what they're looking for, and then we can have an open and honest conversation about what our workplace can provide.

Chris: Yeah.

Eric: Or not

Chris: Yes.

Eric: And help them. Yeah. With their next steps.

Chris: 100%. And one thing, just to even add to that, if what comes into the conversation is like [00:17:00] you had highlighted, when someone says, I'm struggling with something. Right. And this, 'cause this always comes up. Leaders, where's the line between personal and work? Where can I, I'm not a counselor.

How do I help? If someone comes to us says, this is going on for me.

Eric: Mm-hmm.

Chris: Thank them for letting you know, I didn't know that.

Eric: Mm-hmm.

Chris: Given that, what do you need while you're here to be successful? Mm-hmm. That opens up the opportunity. 'cause what you can find, sometimes even people are struggling outside of work.

They can actually come into work and have a meaningful experience. In spite of those challenges. But it's like we now, we take it from their personal situation. What do you need to be successful while you're here?

Eric: Mm-hmm.

Chris: And then we can look at opportunities.

Eric: Mm-hmm.

Chris: If they exist.

Eric: Mm-hmm.

Chris: But even then, if they don't, then we know and then we have to work towards, yeah.

Eric: Yeah. And we can exit with relationship intact and strengthen.

Chris: And they'll probably still recommend someone to come work here.

Eric: Yeah.

Chris: Yeah.

Eric: Yeah. And indeed that has happened before. I've seen that happen. So, so with that, we're gonna wrap up this episode [00:18:00] of the Achieve Workplace Culture Podcast. And if you're listening in and you're thinking about what does this mean for you, I'd say figure out, uh, how you approach people with dignity and openness.

That questions of disengagement. Are rarely exactly what you think they are and that we need to start with curiosity and asking them where they're coming from and dig deep with them and help them figure out their next steps as a peer, as a colleague, as somebody you care for. With that, we'll say goodbye and see you next time.

Outro: Looking for free resources, training and consulting in the areas of leadership and workplace culture. Be sure to check out achieve center com. That's achieve CN TRE com.