Wendy: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Achieve Workplace Culture podcast. I'm Wendy Lowen, and I am joined here by Daniel Dirkson and Chris Downey, authors of the book You Can Manage: A Practical Guide to Becoming the Manager Everybody Wants. In our last episode, we were looking inward at the values- Mm-hmm ... that you as a manager bring and how important that is to closing the int- uh, intent-impact gap, and today we are turning our gaze outwards, and we're looking at the second essential, invest in people, um, as it is talked about in the book. But we wanna hear from you today. What does it mean to invest in people? Dan: Yeah, I'm excited about this one. Uh, when we define manager, there really are kinda two main components. Mm-hmm. It's the work And people. Chris: Right. Dan: Right? And it's, [00:01:00] you know, you can guess which side of the equation most managers struggle with. It's like, "I know how to do the work. That's what I was trained in. I've got so much experience. I was an individual contributor. I've got technical expertise. I know how to do the work, and I know what it means to do the work well." But it's like, but it's all this other stuff. It's the, it's the, the hard conversations, the needing to give feedback- Yeah the, like, uh, relational dynamics between people, conflict. I mean- The Chris: HR stuff Dan: that we often hear. Yeah ... yes, the people stuff that we really just struggle with. Uh, and I think, uh, what I love about this is it puts it right near the beginning of the framework that this is at the core of management. It, this is a relational role. Chris: Mm-hmm. Dan: Right? Leadership is baked into the idea of being a manager. If you, if you do not have a relationship with the people that you lead, if that's not positive and healthy, you can't do your job, and they're not gonna do their job well, right? And so that relationship really is the foundation for everything you want to do together as a, as a team. Chris: Yeah. [00:02:00] Yeah. Yeah, and I think one of the things, just to add to that, is Dan's right. In most situations, people move into management roles because they were great individual contributors, whether that was, you know, they were the, you know, the best on the manufacturing floor or the top salesperson or whatever the case might be. And so they move in very competent in the work, and that almost becomes easy for them. And then, you know, what we hear often is, "Ah, it's the people stuff." And it doesn't get the attention that... The, the default always goes to the work when the reality is, as a manager, the people stuff is the work, and it's a, it's a perspective that needs to be shifted, that one is not more important than the other. It's actually the balance of the two. Um, and, uh, so yeah, this is why we're so quick to get to this idea of investing in, in people as, uh, early on in the, in the essentials. Wendy: Yeah, and I think you're, you're both so right that oftentimes when people [00:03:00] move into a management position, they're very focused on the doing aspect. Right. And the relational element is seen as an imposition or a distraction from the actual work, and what I'm hearing you say is that no, this actually is part of the role. This is the work. Mm. It's not an extra. Right. It is the role. Dan: Well, and there, I mean, there is a school of thought out there, and I've heard this from quite a few managers in different contexts that say, "I can't be friends with my people. I really have to make sure that I don't get too close." Chris: Right. Dan: Right? And it's this idea that, how am I supposed to do my job, meaning how am I supposed to fire people- Right ... have really hard conversations if we're too buddy-buddy, if we're too close to each other, right? And I just wanna flip that around and say all of those hard things you need to do get so much harder- Right when you don't have a relationship, right? You need a strong enough relational bridge to handle the weight of those [00:04:00] hard moments. Chris: Yeah. Dan: If you try to do it- Yes ... without the relationship- Chris: Yeah ... Dan: that's gonna fall apart, right? And so it's- So true ... you know, how close should you be to your people? Close enough that you know them and they trust you. You know their strengths. You know how to communicate with them. I mean You know, the response to that question of how close should I be, it's like, well, how good a manager do you wanna be? I don't know. Chris: Yeah. Dan: That, yeah. Don't be afraid to get close, right? We need some of this actual emotional engagement with people in order to lead well and to manage well. Chris: Yeah. I, I, I, I agree. Dan, just as you're saying that, I think back to so many, you know, catchphrases and things I've heard over the years. You know, "I don't need people to like me, I need them to respect me." And it's like, well, I don't know about you, but how many people do you respect that you don't like? Eight. Like, fundamentally. So let's... It's important. The relationship matters. This isn't, as Dan's mentioning, this isn't optional. Um, it, yeah, how, how good you wanna be at your job, how good are the relationships with the people that you're responsible for? Um, that's, uh, directly related. Dan: And that, that's already just [00:05:00] such a transformational concept- Yeah for some people. It is. I remember working with one CEO, uh, of course, they were... You know, long story short, they were having trouble on their team, and one of their team members told me on day one, this new CEO came in, and she was try- you know, this, this team member was trying to start on a very relational- Mm-hmm like, "Hey, I should get to know this new- Right ... my new boss." Uh, and the boss had said, she had said a quote, uh, she's like, "At some point you'll come to hate me." Right? Oof. She, so she already- Oh ... like set the stage- Ugh ... that it's like, you know- Right ... this is good right now, but this, this isn't gonna be a good relationship because I'm gonna have to, like, be super direct- Yeah and hard. And it's like, and of course, you know, wind the clock forward a year, and the relationship was in tatters. Yeah. Chris: Turnover's probably- Yeah ... increasing, all of that stuff. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Let's just set the stage right away. Yeah. This is gonna be difficult. Yeah. At least you could thank that leader and say, "Thank you for helping me make my decision on whether or not I wanna stay here or not." But yeah. Yeah. Wendy: Well, in the book you talk a lot about trust. What role does trust play if it's [00:06:00] not respect and fear? What role does trust play in engagement, in productivity, in wellness? Those three components that you identified right at the- Yeah ... start of, uh, this series. Chris: Well, I think o- one of the things that, uh, you know, we've, we've mentioned, uh, in, you know, or in an earlier episode here, but let's repeat it. When you, w- one of the things we'll often take people through is, uh, you know, talk about your best management experience ever. When someone, you worked for a g- a great leader, someone you thought had a major influence on you, and people always tell these amazing stories. And if you follow that up and say, "On a scale of one to 10, where would you rank your, where would you rate your level of trust with that individual?" It's always an eight or higher when you hear that. Sometimes it's an 11 on a scale of one to 10. Never have I come across someone that said, "This is my best manager ever," and I did not trust them at all. It's the foundation of the relationship, that it's, any relationship, if it's not rooted in trust, it's c- it's compromised. If I [00:07:00] don't trust you and you don't trust me, we're gonna be holding things back from each other. We're gonna be... I always like to use the term stutter stepping, and, and wondering, "Should I say something? I don't know." When you really trust someone- The stutter stepping actually, it gets eliminated. Now we can really, really talk. So it is, it is everything. Dan: Yeah. I mean, we know that anecdotally just from experience. Uh, a few years ago, ADP did some research to say, how does trust connect to engagement? And again, engagement being this idea of how- Mm-hmm ... committed and enthusiastic are we in our work, uh, which is directly linked to performance, productivity and all those things. Uh, they found that if someone says they trust their manager, uh, they are 12 times more likely to be highly engaged at work, right? 12 times. Like- 12 times ... 12 times. 12 X. That's a lot. Right? Yeah. So, uh, really what they're saying is you can't have one without the other. That's right. Right. It's true. Like, Wendy: they're Dan: intricately linked. Like to, like how could you be engaged at work over the long term if day in and day out the person who [00:08:00] has, uh, influence over your career and your- Mm ... job context, uh, you don't trust them, and you don't believe they have your- Right ... best interests at heart. Yes. Right? If that relationship is sour, it's really hard for the work experience to be positive. Yeah. Right? That's the most important relationship to feel positive and, and healthy. Chris: And while we know it's the most important aspect, trust is a result. Trust isn't something that you do. You do be- there are behaviors, you demonstrate things that you do that build trust in the relationship. So we know it's really important, but the reality is trust is an output of the behaviors you exhibit as a leader. Wendy: Right. So you're not going into work as a manager and saying, "Today, I'm going to work on Chris, getting Chris to trust me." Chris: I do... Well, you Wendy: might be working Chris: on it. " Wendy: Here's the Chris: trust vault." Wendy: But you don't do trust. Right. You don't do trust. There are Chris: things that you do that build trust. I think that's the right way. So Wendy: let's explore that. What are the things that the managers who are listening, what are the things that they can [00:09:00] focus on in terms of here... what I can do to build trust? Dan: Yeah. That's great. So, I mean, we've got a model in our book. There's lots of models out there. Uh, we call it the trust compass. Mm. Mm-hmm, yeah. There's four Cs, and, and Chris, you can jump in on a couple of these. Uh, I'll just go through them. It's clarity, uh, consistency, uh, competency- Mm-hmm ... and care. Chris: Care, Dan: yeah. Right? And so those are the four, and, and I, I'll, I'm gonna have you jump on that last one, uh, because I honestly think it's the most important one. At the core of trust is care. So in our survey work of cultural health, trust and care are the most highly correlated, right? Mm-hmm. So we trust people that we believe care about us, right? So do your people actually believe that you care about them, their interests, and their experience? Mm-hmm. And that's the... And I'll, I'll say that's a critical distinction. It's not as a manager, do you care about your people? 'Cause almost every manager would say yes. Chris: Mm-hmm. Dan: The question is, do your people feel- Right ... cared for- Yes. Yeah, that's it ... by you? Right. That might be a different answer. Absolutely. But it's... So if that's [00:10:00] absent, I actually don't think any of the other Cs can make up for it. Mm. If care is absent, trust is absent. Wendy: Right, there's a gap. Dan: Yeah. Yeah. Seems to impact. It's not everything, but it's a big one. Chris: Yeah. Wendy: So can we drill into that? If that of the, the compass, care, is a real focus area that managers should be paying attention to, how do we demonstrate? What are the tangible behaviors that a manager should be thinking about in terms of demonstrating care? Chris: Well, I think part of it i, is starting with just checking in on people, seeing how they're doing, whether that's related to the work or not. One of the things we like to say, "If you don't know your employees' children's names, you probably aren't putting enough work into the, the relationship." I would use that as an example, but I mean, and not every employee has children, that, that's fine. But making sure you understand- Who they are, what's important to them, right? Not just the work [00:11:00] itself. And there's, there's lots that we can talk about on those other Cs, but who are they as individuals? What's most important to them? What do they need, right? So it would be checking in, learn as much as you can about them would be one key piece. Um, but not just lear- You know, I think, Dan, you, you mentioned before not just extract that so we can leverage that for good, but is to make sure that this is something we're constantly coming back to. Make sure we understand where they're at and how they're doing. Feel free to... Dan: Yeah, I mean, I think you, you, you basically touched on, to me, the most critical practice, if there's one thing I would tell a manager to make sure they, they spend time on, it's the one-on-one. Chris: Right. Dan: Right? We People look at what you spend time on as a manager, and that's how they determine what you value, right? So what they see you spending time on, that's what's important to you. Right. If you're never on that list, well, we can connect the dots, right? If the only way I [00:12:00] talk to you is if I, you know, knock on your door- Need something. Yeah ... or I interrupt you, and, and sure, you've got an open door policy, but I always feel like I'm interrupting. Uh, if I'm not on your calendar and you don't guard that time carefully, uh, I mean, we, we get the message, right? Yeah. And so it's, it's, it's just honestly the fact that you've s- you've carved out time- It's good, yeah weekly and monthly and quarterly, uh, whatever the rhythm is. Uh, you know, yes, you gotta touch on the work and the hurdles that they're facing and, and how can you support them. Uh, but you wanna make sure there's some moment in time where you're also asking about, "What's your experience at work?" Yeah. "How are you doing? What do you need? Do you feel like you're, you're growing?" Mm-hmm. "What would you... W- where are you going in this role? What are your career aspirations?" Mm-hmm. I mean, for a manager to ask that question is not... is like, "Oh, you don't just care about can I meet this deliverable this week? You actually care about- Right whether or not my experience at work is helping me get to where I wanna go in life and in my career," right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, that, that just speaks volumes. Wendy: That was one [00:13:00] of the things I really appreciated about that ch- the chapter on Invest in People, was this idea of recognizing who people are- Right as a human being- Yeah ... and caring for them. But also caring for their future self. Where do they wanna go? How do they wanna develop? What are the things that they are enjoying about their work that they would like to continue- Chris: Yeah ... Wendy: and, and dig into? Chris: Yeah, and this is where these things are very interconnected. So these, this compass that, you know, Dan talked about, they're not these completely independent things. This is where clarity comes in. We can demonstrate care by getting clear on what we need to do, and even clear on who you are and how you wanna show up. So clarity comes in as well to this, right? So we can demonstrate care by providing clarity. Wendy: Right. I mean, I'm wondering about investing in people- Yeah ... and caring for them. Where does... And this is maybe what you're- Yeah ... touching in on. Sure. Where does [00:14:00] feedback or does- Yeah ... difficult conversations, does that factor into this conversation? Chris: It's, it's all about the clarity piece. So I will tell you, in my own journey- I would be surprised, and I have done, and through my... I've, I've done a lot of check-ins with past employees to kind of validate what kind of leader I was, and I've had some pretty honest conversations with some staff, which has been helpful. I don't think anyone would say Chris didn't care. But what I know I was really not good at was the clarity piece. Hmm. And here is the thing: because I couldn't provide the clarity at the time that people needed, and that included making sure they got the feedback that they needed, I really wasn't demonstrating care. I was being a nice manager, but I wasn't being a kind manager. Now, I'm going easy on myself 'cause I just didn't have the skills at that time, but when I reflect back early in my career, the caring was there, but I wasn't kind because I wasn't really [00:15:00] providing... No, the, sorry, the caring, yeah, the caring was there, but the clarity was not there. So it's actually the two feed each other, and as Dan mentioned, we need to be committed to these things, and we need to build up some confidence in all of them. Yeah. So these C's are very, very interconnected, um, but it all comes back to demonstrating care. And, I mean, fundamentally, if you don't care, which we have not yet met a manager that doesn't- Hmm ... but truly, if you just don't care, probably leading people and managing people probably not the position for you. Dan: No, the two go hand in hand. Yeah. I mean, we're, we're creating relationships, but I like how you put it. Our goal is not to be the nice manager. Right. That's not what care is. Mm-hmm. If you think of any of the, like, most caring relationships, uh, in your life, if you care enough about someone- Right ... you're going to have the hard conversation, and you're gonna help them s- figure out, "Hey, I notice this about you and it's having a negative impact." Right? It's the people I don't care about- Yeah ... that I don't give feedback to. Yeah, yeah. Right. 'Cause it's like- I'll let Chris: that go ... Dan: whatever. Yeah. I don't like your behavior, I don't like what you said, but pff. Chris: Yeah. Dan: I'll let you... Like, whatever, you do [00:16:00] you. It's the people that are important to me that it's like, no, I have to say something. I, I don't, I know it'll, like, be hard on the relationship, but I have to say it. And so I always say if somebody gives you feedback, that in and of itself is a sign that they value their relationship with you- You got it ... and they care about you. Chris: Yeah. Dan: Right? So feedback is a signal we send that I care, I care about your growth, I care about how you, if you succeed in this role and in this organization- Mm-hmm and where you go. Uh, and we provide tools in the book for, you know, how do you give feedback in a way where it is received and doesn't trigger defensiveness. Right. I mean, how you say it is important, uh, but you don't wanna shy away from the hard stuff. I mean, that's, that's, that's, that's really where that positive relationship comes, comes through in spades. I mean, think about all the times you've been given hard feedback in your life. Sure. Think about the times when it went poorly and when it went well. Chris: Mm-hmm. Dan: Uh, almost without, without exception, when I didn't appreciate feedback, this came from a person where I didn't have a good [00:17:00] relationship with, and I didn't trust them, and they didn't care about me. All of the hard stuff that act- that I actually received and accepted and worked on and helped me grow came from people that had a positive relationship- Right ... with me, right? Yeah. And so this idea that I can't get close to my people because I have to- Yeah ... give them hard feedback- Yeah ... it's like what you're doing is you're setting yourself up for feedback that will not be helpful. Yeah. It won't land well. Yeah. Right? So build a relationship so that you can help them- Right ... grow in that way, right? So to me they're so, so linked. Chris: Yeah, and if you think back to what we're talking about here, this is this compass that you kind of... about building trust The people we trust the most are the people that we know are gonna be honest with us. They're gonna tell us, "Yeah, I was just working with the leadership team and this was great." It's like, well, if you stink, someone's gotta tell you, right? Yeah. And I'm gonna... Thanks for letting me know. It's kind of like someone pointing out that your fly is down. I really appreciate that, as opposed to leaving me walking around out there. And I think that's, that's, that is the root of how do we build trust is... [00:18:00] But it's, it's done through the lens of caring. I think that's the key. If we just go in and provide clarity and feedback, you know, and it's just, it's gonna be... People obviously talk about, uh, I'm just gonna be, uh, radical candor. If it's not rooted in care, you're not building trust. You're probably severing relationships. Yeah. It's the, the balance of those two. Yeah. Wendy: So I'm, I'm, I'm really appreciating the conversation, and those... For our listeners, can you, Dan, review the trust compass, the four areas? 'Cause what I'm hearing you say is that trust is not built in grand gestures and big events. Yeah. There might be a part of that, but there's that ongoing commitment to the four Cs that are ultimately going to allow you to navigate and find your way to trust. Chris: Mm-hmm. Dan: Yeah. So if we're to summarize, I mean, trust is, uh, is the word that would stand at the center of how... That's what- Right ... that's the word you want to define your relationship with people, right? And so we, we give you lots of ideas in the book as to how to do that. Uh, but you do that through providing [00:19:00] clarity, so that's in your communication and where you stand with people. Clear is kind. Uh, you do that through care, again, acting in ways and, and asking questions and being curious and, and caring about their interests. Uh, consistency, the way you show up, right? Mm-hmm. You're not unpredictable and kinda all over the map. They, they know who they're getting, right? There's some stability and consistency in who you are and your character. Again, if you've defined your values in that leadership charter from last podcast, that's already laying the groundwork for- Mm-hmm some of that consistency. Uh, and the last one is competency, right? Right. In order for people to trust you, they have to trust that you can do what you need to do as a manager. Right. So whatever your role is on that team, uh, make sure that you are investing in your skills and kinda honing your craft, uh, not just in the technical work, but in the craft of being a manager. So they actually need you to take your role as a manager seriously and to be growing in it. So competency is a, is a key part of that. So those are the four Cs. [00:20:00] Building trust, uh, that's ultimately how we build relationships, uh, that lead us in positive places in an organization. Wendy: Thank you. Last word, one habit, one practice for our listeners to take away as they're heading into work, what would you suggest? What would you offer to them? Chris: I just, I'm gonna go back to what Dan said before, the one-on-one The one-on-one ... prioritize the one-on-one. Dan: Yeah. I was gonna say s- if you don't do anything else, check, schedule a check-in. Yeah, Chris: yeah. Wendy: Thank you both, and thank you to our listeners. This was all about investing in people. Our next episode, we will explore building the team. What does it mean? We've gone through the series, we've looked at inward, looked at our values. We've looked at how do we build relationship with the people around us, and in our next episode, we will talk about how do you build your team? How do you bring a group of people together? Thank you very much. [00:21:00] Thank you for joining us on this podcast series. If you are looking for additional support and resources, please reach out to us. Check out our website achievecenter.com.