Wendy: [00:00:00] To the Achieve Workplace Culture Podcast. I'm Wendy Lowen, and I am here today with Dan Derksen and Chris Downey. We are continuing on with our series focusing on You Can Manage: A Practical Guide to Becoming the Manager Everyone Wants. So Dan and Chris, before we jump into essential one which is part two in our series. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And the essential is it starts with who? Dan: You. You. Wendy: It starts with you, yes. How are you doing? Dan: I'm feeling good, you, Ed. I'm, uh, energized, but also recognizing that last week I was, uh, you know, springtime flu and cold kinda hit. Mm-hmm. So I think I'm recovering. So on a scale of one to 10, maybe I'm still a seven or eight, so. Wendy: A seven or eight? Chris: Uh, I'm doing great. I, uh, just spent the last two half days with, uh, a leadership group. So often when you, [00:01:00] when we, when you do that, I, we get inspired just through conversations, and we were focusing on difficult conversations, so, uh, I'm pretty, uh, pretty jazzed right now. Wendy: Oh, you're feeling the energy- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm from the day? Yeah. And Dan, you're getting your energy back. Chris: Right. Wendy: Well, I am very pleased to be here, and I am really looking forward to this conversation, the first essential that is outlined in the book You Can Manage. And management, we're talking about the role of a manager and their importance, and we often talk about not starting with you, but what you do. Right. Why did you choose this first element to start with the individual? Chris: Yeah. Well, I... You know, one of the things I think maybe to start with, before we even start with you, is just talking about the importance, uh, that managers play on the experience people have at work. Dan, you wanna maybe kick us off a little bit? When we think about the, the, the critical role that managers play on how people experience work based off some [00:02:00] of our, our research. Dan: Yeah. I mean, uh, external and our own research, managers are, are so influential to- Chris: Mm-hmm ... Dan: whether or not... I mean, ev- every... If we... You know, the question we often ask is, like, what are some of your best workplaces, experiences? Right. Right? Think about a time, a job, a team, a project, uh, what was going well there. Inevitably, at some point, you're gonna start talking about your team leader, your supervisor, your manager, right? People share things like, "Oh, I had someone that just gave me a lot of latitude. They empowered me. They supported me. They listened to me." Mm-hmm. "They let me have ideas and solve problems." And on the other side, you know, what are your workplace ex- worst workplace experiences, inevitably someone talks about their manager, and it's like, "I was micromanager... I was micromanaged. They yelled at me. They belittled me. They shut down my ideas in meetings." And it, you know, on and on, uh, our experience of our manager ends up being our experience of work, right? So the research shows that 70% of the variance in employee engagement scores connects [00:03:00] directly back to one's direct manager, right? So if people aren't engaged- Mm-hmm ... we need to look at what's going on in the manager. Are they doing well, right? Do they know what their role is? Right. Do they need support? Uh, and I think probably the most shocking stat that I've- Right ... read in the last few years was, uh, just a few years ago, uh, an organization was looking at who are the most influential people in our lives when it comes to our mental health and wellbeing. And you probably wouldn't be surprised to know that n- nobody influences our mental health more than your direct manager at work. The only other person that tied at the same level was your spouse. Wendy: Right. Dan: Okay? So- Okay. Yes ... you think of, like, how much energy do you put into the relationship you have with your manager at work versus the relationship you have with your partner who you committed your entire life to. Both of the, end up having equal influence- Right ... on your mental health. And so that's, you know, when I say that to managers, there's al- there's a little look of like, "Oh, shoot." Right. "That's a weight on my shoulders. I don't think I can carry that kind of..." Sure. But it's also, right, yes, it's a weight on your shoulder, but it [00:04:00] means you have opportunity. You've got incredible influence to make a positive change in someone else's life. So that's- Yeah ... I think that's massive. Chris: No, thanks for starting us there, 'cause I think th- that articulates it. We know how influential and how impactful the relationship with the direct manager is. As Dan mentioned, nothing contributes more to a person's mental health and wellbeing than their m- direct manager or their spouse or their, their, their, their partner. That's an incredible amount of responsibility, and what we find is that people often jump into the role, or are just given the role, uh, because they're, they were a warm body and they filled the seat, and they get i- immediately into the doing, all of the things that need to be done. And rightfully so, 'cause there's just so much that's going on. And unfortunately, what happens when that's the case is if we aren't thinking about how we go about doing the work that we do, then we run the risk of doing things that [00:05:00] unintentionally can be actually damaging, even harmful, for the individuals that we're responsible for. So we start with this idea of starting with you first because we wanna g- be grounded in how we wanna be as managers. For me on a personal level, I was 10 years into my leadership career, my management career, um, before someone actually asked me, "What kind of manager do you wanna be?" And when I reflected on that I came up with some pretty, I'd say, inspiring answers. And then when I started to look at how I was operating, it ran opposite. No wonder I wasn't doing great, nor were the people I was responsible for. So what we really wanna focus on is we, we look at this idea, starting with you, as how you grow up as a leader, right? So we think about that as vertical leadership development. Your, as Dan mentioned in our previous cast, your ways of being, right? How do you wanna be? How do you wanna show up? What's your mindset as a leader? So as you [00:06:00] develop your skills horizontally, the things that you need to do, they're grounded in your ways of being. Wendy: Yeah, and in the book, you talk about the ways of being- Yes ... and the ways of doing. Yes. Is that what you're referring to with those two- Chris: Absolutely. Yeah, the ways of being, you wanna- ... accents ... you, that you, you continue to grow as a leader in how you wanna be. You never... That's not just something you just start and leave it there. That's a constant. How do you wanna be? 'Cause that grounds you in how you show up when you do the things that you need to do. Wendy: So what are the, some of the things that you talk about when you're focusing on yourself? I'm a manager, I'm listening to this, and I really, I know what I'm responsible to do, the tactical, the operational things. How do I start with myself? Chris: Mm-hmm. Dan: There are so many pieces there. I mean, as Chris mentioned, I think you start at a, at a high level to say, what type of manager do I wanna be? What really do I believe my purpose is? What's my why- Right ... for this role? Sure. Like, why does my work matter? Why does this role as a manager matter? And then not, [00:07:00] move beyond the why to talk about the how, right? Mm-hmm. It's, it's how do I actually wanna carry myself? What are the values and principles that will guide me? Just get clear on that first, and then at least you, you have a benchmark to say, as, uh, are my behaviors and actions lining up with that, or is there a gap between- Right ... how I want to be experienced and how I'm actually experienced? Mm. But unless you've defined some of those things for yourself, it's really hard to know, am I living, what am I living up to, right? What's the standard? Chris: Yeah. Yes. Well, a- and I have to just build in on, Dan's absolutely right, what's my purpose, and what are, what's important to me? What do I value? 'Cause when we operate in ways that are out of step with our values, it feels pretty off. And taking that a little bit deeper now is, when you think about the people that you're responsible for in your role, what do you want for them? What do you want for them as people? What do you want for them as employees, right? And how do you wanna be experienced as a manager and as a leader? 'Cause here's the interesting thing. Dan and I, and yourself, Wendy, we work with so many leaders in so many [00:08:00] different, um, industries and sectors, and it's definitely in the thousands when we've asked this question, what do you want for the people you're responsible for? Not- Mm ... one manager has ever said, "I wanna screw my people up." Yeah. No one has ever said, "I wanna do harm." I Dan: wanna suck the life out of... Yeah. I want every last drop- Yeah ... of energy from my team until they're used up and burnt out. Yeah. Nobody says that. Chris: No one says it, and this is it. And I know some people are listening to this right now, and they probably have a manager that is just sucking the life out of them, and I don't wanna diminish that, 'cause that's real, but I guarantee that manager doesn't intend to do it. They are behaving, though, in ways that are out of step with it. So if we don't put conscious effort into thinking about what do we want for people, then we're running the risk, as Dan mentioned, of impacting people in a way that is opposite of what our intentions are. And one of the things we talk about is, all of us have a gap between our intentions and our impact. Our intentions are awesome, and we can... We actually call it your [00:09:00] leadership charter. You wanna make sure you're clear on the leader you wanna be. And being self-aware is important, but are you having the impact that you want? And so all of us have a gap. Some of us have a narrow gap, and some have call it a chasm. But what we wanna be doing is making sure we're clear on our intentions, paying attention to how we're impacting people, and developing skills to close that gap. That's that key. Wendy: That's, that's so fascinating. I have two questions. Sure. The first one, back to the values piece. Sure. Are you talking about your own values as a person, or are you talking about the values your organization is espousing? What's the connection between those two? Well, Dan: hopefully they dovetail together, right? I think, I think you can do both. I mean, the, your organizational values, depending on- Mm-hmm ... how they were written, hopefully they're not just nice words on a website- Yeah ... but they're actually meaningful, uh, then yes. I mean, if your leadership values don't align with that, you might be in the wrong organization. Uh, but I think it is a [00:10:00] separate subset. Yeah. Right? So I know for myself, uh, defaulting to transparency is a value that I lead with. Mm. Right? Uh, there, if there isn't a very clear, defensible reason not to share information with my team, I won't do it just because they're, they're, they don't have a high enough pay grade , right? Mm-hmm. And so that's a, that's a value that I have as a leader, and that shows up in, in the ways that I work with people, right? So what are, what are the values that guide you underneath this- Yeah ... larger banner of your organizational values and culture? So those do have to align, but I think it is a separate exercise to then Wendy: your own- And your own personality, what you bring- Yeah your own values to your leadership role. Totally. Yeah. Which is what makes us all wonderfully unique. Chris: Right, and this is exactly... We'll use Dan's example here. So the intent here is to make sure you connect with what you value, 'cause this is really important. You need to know yourself. And just using Dan as an example, his value of transparency, that's important for him to know, 'cause there's gonna be times in his role, regardless of the values of the [00:11:00] organization, where he might not be able to be as transparent as he naturally wants to be. For sure. So as he just... I'm just building on what you just said, Dan. He needs to make sure he has a good understanding of why that's the case if he wants to lead in the possible... If Dan was just asked, "Just go and carry this out and don't tell anyone anything," you're probably feeling gross already, me just saying this. So- Yeah ... the m- the cl- the more we can understand about what we value, ideally they're, they're, it will link with the organizational values. But you know what? There's gonna be times when they're not, b- just because this is the way things go. Then we can realize, how do, how can I operate in this situation in the best possible way that's taking care of the people that I'm responsible for and myself? Because if we, if we have to operate out of step with our values- Over time, that's where moral injury starts to- Yes ... to occur. And so the more grounded we can be around what's important to us, then the better we are at being able to manage in ways that are aligned with that, even [00:12:00] when there's tension in the moment. And then, then we're in more control, right? Because we know just that, that alone is super powerful to, for Dan to know that about himself, and quite frankly for me as a peer of his to know that as well. Wendy: Mm. ' Chris: Cause just asking him to do something- Yeah ... and not tell people would just infuriate you, right? Dan: Yeah. Yeah. Which is- This is a need to know. Yeah. Like, just uttering those words is gonna- Yeah ... like make my skin crawl. See, you're probably getting Chris: uncomfortable as we talk about it. So, so Dan: when- But it helps you make decisions, right? If you don't know your values- Chris: Of course, yes ... Dan: there's so many leadership moments- Yeah that you're gonna stall or be hesitant, or you're just gonna flub them- Chris: Yeah ... Dan: because it's like, "I don't really know how I want to approach this, and so I default to how somebody else has done it- Yeah ... or some famous celebrity CEO- Right ... or it's like they said this thing, so I guess that's how we're doing it now." And it's like, wait a minute. Have you even stopped to think about how you want to handle- That's it. That's it ... that situation? Chris: Yep. Yeah. Dan: If you don't articulate it, you end up just copycatting everyone else. Wendy: Yeah. And like you said in the, we talked about in the first, uh, the earlier podcast around- Mm-hmm ... we don't need heroics. We need people who [00:13:00] know their- Yeah ... values- Yep ... and know how to demonstrate them. Chris: Yeah. Well, I, this is, the, the interesting thing about this, we, we could talk for days about values. These, as humans, we're values driven. That's our most powerful source of motivation. It's the things we will run towards or the things we will draw a line against, but yet we don't really talk too much about it. So it's really important if we're taking on a role like this, that we ground ourselves on what's most important and that let that help guide how we operate, even in times when there's a, a, a tension there. Wendy: You know, one of the things that you, um, you both talked about in the book is, uh, a leadership charter. Chris: Right. Wendy: Can you tell our listeners a little bit about that? What is that, and how is that connected to the intent impact gap? Chris: Yeah. Well, I mean, the leadership charter is really about getting clear on who you are and how you wanna be as a leader. What do you want for these people that you're responsible for? What do you value? And really [00:14:00] articulating that, not just thinking it through in a moment, but actually spending some time and getting clear on- Who do you wanna be and how do you wanna be as, as a manager, as a person that's responsible for this? Yeah. And calling it out. And then the idea, as you look to the rest of the, the, the, the essential work is use that as your anchor, as your guide to how you wanna operate. And this isn't... This is important. You're gonna have moments when you operate out of step with that charter 'cause you're tired, you're low on resources, whatever the case might be. When that happens, take ownership for the behavior instead of making excuses, right? So if you can use that... The b- the best part about that charter is that's not what Dan says good managing is, that's not what Chris says good managing. That's what you say good managing is, and hold yourself accountable to that. Nothing's more powerful than your own values and what you say is most important, right? Hold yourself accountable. So the leadership charter is, it's a [00:15:00] very straightforward set of questions to help you get clear on how you wanna be and how you wanna show up- Yeah as a manager. Dan: Yeah. You set the standard for yourself, and then you know where you need to get feedback- Yeah ... to close your blind spots. Yeah. It's like, "This is how I wanna show up." Chris: Yeah. Dan: All right. Well, I guess I need to ask my team if I'm doing that. Yeah, Chris: that's right. Yeah. Dan: Right? Yeah. So it's like, I know this is my s- my North Star. How do I, how do I get truthful, real- Right ... insight? Uh, you know, I, I had a leader once ask me, "What's it like to be on the other side of me?" And I thought that was such a powerful question. If you can- Hmm ... create a safe enough space and a trusting enough relationship- Right ... where the people on your team could honestly answer that, you're gonna get a wealth of information. What's it like to be on the other side of me? Sure. Right? If... I, I think that the higher, uh, the higher up you go in the org chart in an organization, the bigger your blind spots tend to be because it's, it's harder for people to tell you the tr- the unvarnished truth. Yeah. Yeah. And so you've got a little bit more work, and we're gonna talk [00:16:00] about that in our next essential, of how do you create the relational strength- Chris: To get there, Dan: yeah for people to really give you honest feedback. Chris: Yeah. And I think when you, how you connect this to the intent to impact gap is being self-aware is great. That's an awesome skill. Uh, and our intentions are wonderful, right? There's all sorts of sayings about, uh, the road is paved with positive intentions. Okay. But what we really need to be paying attention to are what are the cues day to day that are giving me the signs that I'm having the impact that I want or not? And I think somebody, we had special guest on this podcast quite some time ago, Jeff Goularte, talks about, goes at being other aware. What are the indicators out there? And there's many of them. There's feedback, but there's also other indicators. Am I having the impact that I want? So the charter is about getting clear on how you want to show up, and then what you want to be able to do is then look out- Around you to see if there's signs that you're ex- being experienced the way that you wanna be. Wendy: Thank you. That's a great summary. Know your values, hold yourself to accountability, think about your charter. Dan: [00:17:00] Mm-hmm. Wendy: How do you wanna be perceived? What's it like to be on the other side of me, as a takeaway for our listeners to think about. Dan: Mm-hmm. Wendy: And I wanna turn it back over to the both of you. What, in terms of our listeners, thinking about starting with themselves, if they do one thing after listening to this episode, what would you... Where would you direct them? Dan: Oh, honestly, the first thing I would, I would say self-care. Take care of yourself. Mm-hmm. If you're a manager, how you show up influences everyone else, so if you're not engaged, chances are your team is not engaged. If you're burning out- Right ... chances are your team is also not getting the support they need, and they might be burning out, right? Mm-hmm. So disengaged managers create disengaged team, and so I think it's, it's our, it's our responsibility to take self-care seriously. Mm-hmm. If you know you're not doing well as a manager, you need to learn to advocate for yourself, talk about what you need, and make sure you get that because it matters not just for you, but for everyone else. Wendy: Right. So that scorecard you talked about in the [00:18:00] previous episode, that also holds true for ourselves. Dan: Absolutely. Chris: 100%. Dan: Yep. Wendy: Chris? Chris: I, I agree with Dan 100%. It's, uh ... It is a responsibility, and it's actually an ethical one that we have because we, we just started this off at the, you know, the beginning of the cast, Dan, you talked about how important the role managers are and, and the impact they have on our mental health and wellbeing, and if we show up and we're not doing okay, odds are we're going to create conditions where people aren't doing okay. Yeah. Wendy: Thank you both, and thank you to our listeners for joining us. Uh, wish you well as you seek to focus on yourself and to live your values in your management role. We'll look forward to you joining us in our next episode, where we talk about building the team. Thank you for joining us on this podcast series. 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