Wendy: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Achieve Workplace Culture Podcast. I'm very pleased to be here with Daniel Anthony Dirksen and Chris Downey, authors of the book You Can Manage: A Practical Guide to Becoming the Manager that Everybody Wants. Thank you, listeners, for joining us in our special series. This is part four of a six-episode series based on the book, focusing on management.

Um, our last episode was about investing in your people, one-on-ones, building trust, showing the people around you that you care for them, and today we're gonna zoom out and focus on building the team You start the book off by saying, "Dream a dream, build the team." Mm-hmm. So as an opener, I would like to ask the both of you, maybe starting with you, Dan, what does that mean to you?

Dan: Well, [00:01:00] uh, the story was my first management position, so I had this... I was being oriented. It was even in the interview process before I ever got into this organization, uh, the manager used this phrase. He said, "Dream a dream, form a team." Mm-hmm. I was like, "Okay," and then just kept repeating it and repeating it.

And really, I mean, to this individual, a team was the solution to everything, right? Mm-hmm. You've got a problem, form a team. You've got an idea, form a team. You need to buy a new coffee maker, form a team. It didn't, like, it didn't matter what. Like, the, the solution was get some people together and make it happen, and his belief was that we will do more together than we will just as a collection of individuals.

Uh, and I will say, after, like, the 40 or 50th time hearing that phrase- ... I was pretty sick of it. And so we stopped using it, actually. But in, in hindsight, it's like, oh, you know what? I think he was onto something. Like, there is such potential in teams, right? Yeah. Right. I mean, they... We know this from experience if you've been on a great team.

We know this from the research. teams can [00:02:00] handle more complex problems. They can process information. They can make decisions better. but there's, a big if after that sentence. Teams can do all that stuff- If ... 'Cause I think we've all experienced, a really bad team. It's if things move slowly, we're getting in each other's way, there's grit in the gears, we have these long meetings, we don't know why, we forgot who made a decision.

Did we make a decision? And you just kinda throw your hands up, and it's you know what? This would be faster if I did this on my own. I'm just gonna do this myself. and so I think that's actually a very common experience. It's like I'd rather go off and just put me in my office, put me in my workstation, let me do it.

and so teams... Anyway, so the, the phrase kinda sh- highlights the potential of teams that I think is often unrealized. 

Chris: Yeah. It's, it... I, I, I, I, I really like that story, Dan, and even listening to it again, and which is often the case as we went through the writing process of the book, it got me thinking and sometimes rethinking what I thought to be true.

And this [00:03:00] is one of those examples, 'cause I, I am definitely a collaborator by, by nature. That's my, my kind of natural spin. But that idea that if you have an idea, let's get a team around this, the sooner you do that, the, the better. Uh, and I think of all of the times where I haven't been successful is when I've actually pulled something in to try to figure it out first.

So I love just as a... Even just hearing you tell that story was a reminder of how important that is and the potential that exists. But like you said- The potential is real if 

Wendy: If. 

Chris: You know? Yeah. And to- And there's, there's some pretty serious ifs along there- Yeah ... for sure. Yeah. 

Wendy: Yeah. Well, and I have to say, Dan, the fact that that saying might have gotten under, you know, your skin just a little bit when you were hearing it so often, it, it, it has now resonated with you so much so- Well, it's made it into your book

that you've actually included it- It's here. It's in here ... in the book. Yeah Right? Yeah. Yeah. So- So thanks 

Chris: manager ... 

Wendy: so teams are powerful- Yeah ... with the if. 

Chris: Yep. 

Wendy: Yep. And you also in the book talk about that some teams don't ever grow up, that [00:04:00] they end up being stuck. Mm-hmm. And you outline Tuckman's four stages, and you also, I thought it was really interesting, you made the caveat before, you say, you talk about the fact that new teams often make a lot more mistakes.

Uh, I think the study that you cited says up to 50% more mistakes. So it's very important that that if- Right ... gets addressed and that teams do grow up. For, for all of us here, and for our listeners, can you outline what those four stages are in brief? Yeah. Of what a team will naturally progress through in that growing up.

Dan: For sure. I mean, it's not a new model. Right. And yet it's one that's stuck with us. There's different models, but they end up saying the same things. And so Tuckman was the one who came up with this concept of forming- storming, norming, and performing. And so it's this idea that, we can't just put a bunch of people in a room- and call it a team. 

Chris: and expect it- that's 

Dan: a group of people- 

that's not a team, right? A team is aligned around a shared purpose and actually knows how they work together and collaborate- [00:05:00] Yeah ... to work towards that end, right? so a group of people is not that. And so as he, really the, theory is just like individuals, groups have these stages of maturing together.

And so in the first phase of forming, right, we're together and we're all- Mm ... maybe a little bit hesitant, and we're super polite, and we... It's like, "Well, what's going on here? What's my role? What's your role? Who are you?" And we tend to defer to the leader a little bit more, whoever has the most authority in the room, and so a lot of the decision-making is centralized.

Uh, and, and so it really tends to be characterized by that like- Mm-hmm ... slow, polite forming stage. Uh, and then when we get comfortable, we get to that stage two, and that's storming, right? We start realizing, "Oh, we actually don't all see things the same way," or, "I disagree with that approach," or that underlying, you know, philosophy, ideology, whatever it is.

Uh, you start to realize all these areas of misalignment, and so you have- Mm ... conflict, right? You have tension. Uh, and, and, and really I'd say this is the stage where most teams stall out, 'cause it's [00:06:00] really easy to- Right ... kinda find that tension and be like, "Whoa." This, this is hard. "This is uncomfortable." This is hard, yeah.

Or we don't know how to process this, so let's go back to the first stage where we're just a little bit more silent and polite- Right ... and let the leader handle things. So we actually like, a lot of teams just bounce between those first two- For sure ... stages of forming and storming. 

Wendy: Mm-hmm. 

Dan: And very few get through the storming, right?

Yeah. So if you handle conflict and actually process through it and get these things out in the open and talk about it, then you can begin to identify, wait a minute, what do we need from each other- Mm ... and what do we need to accomplish our purpose in the ways of working, and we call it also the ways of being, right?

Our attitudes and things like that. Uh, and then you get to the s- stage of norming, right? So you're determining what will be normal here. What do we want our culture to be? What do we want to be normal here? Uh, and so that's really establishing those kind of agreements with each other. And then if you do that, and you sort of get, get your reps in on that, you get to that fourth stage of performing.

[00:07:00] And if you've ever been there with a team, which I think happens so rarely, uh, it's, it really is a very cool place to be. Sure. Yeah. I mean, it's, you're moving forward, uh, so quickly. Things are happening. Communication, uh, a- almost is less explicit because it's like, "I know you. We have these habits. We have these routines.

I know what you need. I'm just doing it." There's sort of an unconscious alignment that occurs where, where it, it just... You're moving forward. And so, you know, you, you don't have to intentionally meet and talk about and, and standardize all the processes- Right ... because you're just so in sync with each other.

You're just moving. Right? Mm-hmm. And so that's the... I mean, that's where we wanna get to. You want that team to be in that place, and, and teams that have been together for a long time and have been largely unchanged tend to experience this. Mm. And I think what we often don't hear about is every single time you get a new team member, you recycle all the stages.

Mm. Right. So if you were performing- Yep ... and you got turnover, well, guess what? As a leader, you now need to- Sure ... [00:08:00] treat this as a new team, and you need to go through forming, norming, storming before you get back to performing, right? So it's, our job as a leader is, how do we, how do we help a team and facilitate the moves needed to, to mature quickly- Yeah.

Wendy: Yeah ... 

Dan: right, when we need to? Yeah. 

Wendy: So that idea of growing up, getting to that- Sure ... performing stage, in the book, you outlined three really important concepts to help develop teams and allow- Mm ... them to get to that performing stage. You talk about creating alignment, pursuing clarity, and cultivating community.

And earlier on, Dan, you used the word alignment. Uh, and then, I mean, lo and behold, it's in the book as well. Yeah. So, Chris, can I put you- Sure ... on the spot? Sure. What, what does it mean for a team to be aligned, and what happens when there's a, an assumed alignment? Sure. 

Chris: Yeah. Well, I think, I think that's... Uh, what, what Dan highlighted to begin with, tho- those, those four stages are pretty well known for sure, and you can move through them reasonably quickly if you do it [00:09:00] with intention.

But in many cases, it happens organically, and if you leave it organically, as Dan mentioned, sometimes you get stuck in that forming, storming phase and never really get out of, you get caught in that cycle. And one of the reasons that we can get s- caught in that cycle, a- and Dan highlighted this already, is- You know, a group of people together in a room isn't a team.

A team is a group of people that are there for a common purpose, that are aligned around that common purpose, right? So, you could, if... And we often make assumptions that we know what that is, right? Because maybe we're part of an organization that is, you know, a caring organization making a difference in the world, but what is really the purpose of this group?

Why are we all together? What, what is the, what is it we're trying to accomplish? So, that's one of those first things, as basic as that sounds, we wanna get crystal clear on why we exist as a team. But it's not just on saying the words. What does that mean to each individual? And that's what Dan was getting at when we move into, [00:10:00] uh, when we start to storm, then we start to realize, "Oh, while we're aligned on this, we see it a little bit different."

And that's honestly where the magic happens, where the- Mm ... where it's that back and forth, where it starts to, um, starts to make a little bit more sense, and they understand each other in a better, better level. So, that way, when you actually set some commitments on how we wanna work together, it's in an informed way.

And I think teams often... I always like to use the example of we're an IT help desk. Yeah. Okay? And where the, and then we, people just jump into all of the doing. If it's a, you know, if that's what... Well, there's, why do we exist within this organization? Let's get really clear on that. And I think that is a critical step before you can really move to forward.

Do we really know what we're doing here as a team, and what we need from each other? Yeah. 

Dan: Yeah. 

Chris: Yeah. 

Wendy: So, starting with alignment- 

Chris: 100% ... 

Wendy: and you're, you made the natural bridge into the next one- Yeah ... the idea of pursuing clarity. Yeah. And in the book, uh, there's this really, I found it quite a, a powerful story about driving in a blizzard, uh, to, uh, illustrate what [00:11:00] happens when there isn't clarity, and you also talk about managers as being, um, is it the chief clarity officer?

Yeah. That they should really focus on creating clarity. Can you expand a little bit on the story of, you know, driving in a blizzard, and what that has to teach us about management? 

Dan: Yeah, sure. Well, it just, uh, it kinda struck me one time. I mean, we're in Manitoba, so we're driving through blizzards pretty often- Right

maybe more than we should. Uh, and I remember this one incident where I'm, I'm driving along the highway, and the, and you know, it's, it's sunny, and it's clear, right? So, I'm, you know, I've got cruise control on, I'm looking out into the horizon, I'm listening to music or a podcast. Ideas are being generated, right?

Yeah. You're, you're s- your, your head is kind of in all over the place, as you have freedom to kind of think and expand and innovate and I- you know, ideate and all those things. Uh, and then I see kind of up ahead, like, it, it almost looked like a wall. Like, as the visibility was just gone. Mm-hmm. And I'm getting closer, and it's like, "Hmm.

You know, what's going on here? I should probably take this off cruise." [00:12:00] Uh- I don't. And then you enter it, and suddenly, like, just within moments I don't see anything. It's total whiteout, right? And so immediately, you're, you're off cruise control. You're, you're no longer, uh, driving with one hand. You're at 10 and 2.

You're not looking out on the horizon 'cause you can't see anything, so your vision is, is kinda right in front of you. You slow down. Yeah. Right? So there's all these things that happen, and it kind of occurred to me later on that this is also what happens to us in teams and in- Right ... organizations. When there's a lack of clarity, uh, we take our eyes off the horizon.

We look at only what's right in front of us because we can't see past that. Yeah. Right? So we get, we get very shortsighted. Uh, we get cautious. We get risk-averse, right? Our, our, our, our, kind of our free-flowing ideas and things like that, uh, we get in this, like, emergency, urgency mode, right? Yeah. A, a lot of leaders talk about firefighting.

And so we get to this place of just, let's deal with what's right in front of us. Let's be hyper risk-averse. [00:13:00] Uh, and teams kinda get stuck in that place. Yeah. And, and to me, the root cause is we, we just haven't created conditions to be clear on our roles, our goals- Yeah ... our vision, our purpose. And so as, as a leader, how do we create clear clarity so that kinda people can get out of that, that mode or that state- Right

of mind? 

Chris: Yeah, and that's, and that, that's really what it comes down to. And that's why I love the idea of the chief clarity officer, is that everything Dan talked about, that's natural human behavior when you're uncertain on where you're going. You're gonna slow down. You're gonna be cautious. You're gonna do all of those things.

So while a team might take a bit of time to build connection, getting clear Starts, that can start really early, and that does start with the leader. That's one of the biggest gifts you can give to your employees so they actually feel like they're not driving into a... They may be running into, they may be driving into some questionable weather, but they know what at least is ahead of them.

That changes everything. The connection might take some time, but clarity can start right away. Yeah. The sooner we can get clear on that, 

Dan: the better. And that's just super practical stuff. Yeah. Right? I [00:14:00] think, I mean, it's, you, we think of clarity, we think of communication, but it's also planning. 

Chris: Yeah. 

Dan: Right?

Can you be a few steps ahead? Can you anticipate and clear some hurdles? Can you clarify decisions, decision rights? Right. Decision-making processes. Can you clarify roles, goals, what's important to us? What, what does a scorecard for success look like? I mean, there's, there's so many things that, uh, the average employee and team member doesn't have time to clarify, or they clarify it for themselves- 

Chris: Right, right

Dan: and so we all have this different idea- Yeah ... of a clarified reality. Of course. And so it's a manager's job to actually bring that all together and, and make sure that our idea of a clear reality is in sync, and it just gets out of sync- Sure ... real 

Chris: fast. Real fast. Real fast, yeah. 

Wendy: So starting, if we wanna get to that performing stage, you, um, create alignment.

Mm-hmm. You pursue clarity, and then the last concept that you talk about in that chapter is the idea of, um, building community, that cultivating a sense of [00:15:00] community amongst your team. Mm-hmm. And I found it very interesting, and I think our listeners would value hearing you speak to the idea that you put forward in the book, that your team is not your family.

I read that, I read that again- Right ... because we often hear that. So, um, yeah. Can you elaborate on that- My, I think we can probably- ... that 

Chris: idea? We can probably both speak to this for sure, that it, the whole idea of building community is, is that, yeah, building connection within this group, and once you are clear and you're connected and you know how we wanna work together, then we do amazing things.

I think Dan spoke very well to that. But we also wanna be mindful of what is the team and what is the, not the team. One of the things we've found in the work that we do, people will often say "Oh, the team's great. It's just we're just like family." That's not the best analogy to use for so many reasons.

sometimes people haven't had the best family experience, for one, so maybe- that's not something that we want to bring. And we also wanna be clear that your team isn't there to replace family either, whether that's good or bad. [00:16:00] but the team is a community, and when that can be... We know this both in work and in life, when a community is connected strong and tight, then amazing things can happen.

And examples from doing great work to raising a barn, right? Whatever that might be. So it's just, it's, it's meeting fundamental human needs, but we really encourage people to focus on building that community, that team strength, not trying to replace that with family. Anything to add there, Dan?

Dan: Yeah. I mean, when I wrote that in the beginning of the book, "Your team is not your family," my intention was not to throw anyone under the bus. Like, if you've called your team that- Yeah ... I, I'm not here to criticize you. Your intentions were, your intentions 

Chris: were good. 

Dan: Yeah. Yeah. It is well-intentioned. Really, what we're saying is, "I feel connected, I feel cared for."

That's right. "I feel like I can rely on people, they have my back." So that's actually awesome. The reality is great. 

Chris: Yes. 

Dan: The metaphor is broken. 

Chris: That's right. 

Dan: Right? That's a good way, yeah. Uh, we don't, we don't- It's not full ... we don't interview a- and hire people into our families. We don't do annual performance reviews on our siblings-

and we don't fire them if they're not performing, right? Yeah. Yeah. 

Chris: Uh, 

Dan: and so [00:17:00] there's all sorts of reasons why that's different, but I think the concept of what we're trying to say- Yes ... is valid, and we have to hold onto it. And to me, the better word there is community. We're a community with a shared purpose, so it's a productive community.

Uh, but really, it's this idea of we wanna be in a space where we are valued as human beings, we feel cared for as more than units of productivity. Yep. Uh, and this is a place that I feel like I belong, right? My, I'm valued- Yeah ... my contributions are valued, uh, my perspective is valued, there's space for me, uh, right?

And all of that, you know, creating the psychological safety in the group for all of that to happen is just so important. Sure. Right? So the concept behind when we say family, I think we need to preserve that. The language- Yes ... needs to shift. And as a manager, just to say that- Like, this is y- this really is your job, right?

So part of your job really is kind of facilitating some social connection, right? That's right. It's not just a matter of you having strong connection one-on-one with every team member. Right. We want you to be thinking about your team like a network, and you want all of the nodes in that [00:18:00] network to be connected in healthy ways.

Yeah. And so learning to kind of monitor that, make space for that, make it more likely for people to form those relationships, uh, and to create that environment of safety and belonging, uh, that, that is our role, and I think we have opportunity for that. 

Chris: Yeah. And just to, to, to kind of bookend that a little bit, the idea of having that strong community and then coupling that with the clarity, well, the cool thing is, that's the recipe for success, not just for a team.

At... That... We do well as humans when we have those things, right? When we feel part of something, we feel we matter, we belong, and we're clear, we're, we're, we're, we're con- contributing in a meaningful way, that fills us up, right? So that not only creates a, a, a, a team that's performing, that's doing well, that's engaged, individuals do, and that goes back to kind of what we're all about as a, you know, as a, as a writing team, but as an organization.

How can people have a good experience so they can go back out to the world in a better shape? And this is, uh, this creates those conditions for human success and workplace success as well. 

Wendy: Yeah. [00:19:00] Fantastic. You know, we're getting to the end of our time. Mm-hmm. There are so many great ideas and tools and practices in the book.

I'm gonna highlight just three of them. You talk about there's a team, um, agreement canvas, a role fit matrix, and a manual of me. As a takeaway for our listeners, can you... I mean, I won't ask you to pick your favorite, but can you pick one? If there was somewhere to start for our listeners, they can pick up the book, they can read about all three of them, but if they wanted one sort of tidbit to take away from today in application 

Dan: Yeah, I mean, we can both answer.

Yeah. My go-to move is the team agreement canvas. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Really, it's, uh, especially, I mean, this is, this is how you move from- 

Chris: Yeah ... 

Dan: forming, storming into norming. It's like, just make space. Let's put it on the agenda. Honestly, carve out an hour and, and put it on the whiteboard, and everybody gets to talk about, what do we want to be normal in our team, right?

Yeah. And so I, I use the quadrant of, what do we want to [00:20:00] engage in? What do we want to avoid? And I think about, let's think about both our ways of working and our ways of being. So what are the attitudes we wanna bring? So it might be, well, on our team, we wanna keep an open mind, right? We don't wanna s- we don't wanna shut down ideas by saying, "That's just how we've always done it," right?

So you might just name that, right? And behaviors, you might say, "Well, on our team, we don't gossip e- about each other behind, uh, behind each other's backs and outside of this meeting." But ways of working might be, "You know what? We're not gonna have meetings on Friday afternoon. We've just decided that. That doesn't work for us."

Right. That's great. Or, we're always gonna send out agendas in advance of a meeting, right? So you're just kinda clarifying the norms. Uh, and the beauty of this is you're gonna say a bunch of things that are obvious. Like, the no gossip thing to me feels so obvious- Mm-hmm ... and everyone immediately sha- nods their head and be like, "Yes, that's great."

And then, you know, some people say, "Well, do you need to say that out loud?" It's like, "Yes, you do." Yeah. Because there's so many teams that know gossip is unproductive and unhealthy- that still do it. So you have to name it out loud, and collectively as a group, agree this is [00:21:00] not what we want, and we are willing to hold each other accountable to this.

Chris: I, was gonna say, so I'll back you up on that- Dan, if you're gonna pick one thing. It's not that it's the favorite, but this is so important. And the team that we, the work we do with teams, that's often where it comes down to. Let's be clear what our agreements are. Because it might be obvious, let's not gossip, or let's not talk about each other when they're not in the room.

But what happens when you're tired and you're low on resources, or maybe you're frustrated? That's when we're at risk of slipping in. And by calling it out, we're giving each other the, permission to hold ourselves accountable. into mode where maybe I'm talking about, you know, Wendy.

Well, Wendy's not in the room. Dan can say, "Hey, are we talking about Wendy here?" Thank you. That get, keeps me back on track. I need that from Dan when my resources are depleted, as he needs it from me as well. So I, I'm totally with you on that. Team agreement, for sure. 

Wendy: Thank you. Thank you both, and thank you, listeners, for joining us.

In summary, it's very clear that teams don't naturally get to the performing [00:22:00] stage, that we really wanna work to create alignment, clarity, and community. And if you wanna start somewhere, start with a team canvas agreement. Thank you very much. Again, thank you so much for joining us for this conversation.

If you enjoyed it and would like to go deeper or have your team work directly with the ideas that we explored here today, we would really love to hear from you. We offer training in the area of management, along with keynotes, lunch and learns that bring these concepts to life in, for your organization.

So just reach out to us. We'd love to start the conversation. And if the content resonated with you, you can order the book directly from our website at achievecenter.com. It's also available on Amazon, and for those of you who would rather listen, you can also find it on Audible. Until next time, thanks for joining us and for listening, and we'll see you in the next episode where we'll be talking about [00:23:00] advancing the work.