Wendy: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Achieve Workplace Culture Podcast. I'm Wendy Lowen, your host for this episode. I am joined today by, with Daniel Dirkson and Chris Downey, who are authors of the book You Can Manage: A Practical Guide to Becoming the Manager that Everyone Wants. This is part six, our final episode in our six-part series.

This last episode, we're gonna be talking about a much neglected, I think, element. Strengthening the organization is the idea we're gonna be pursuing and exploring, and then we're also gonna wrap up this series and, and come full circle. So we're gonna zoom out one more time, the last level, strengthening the organization.

You, in the book, start with a bit of a paradox, where you talk about that sometimes the best teams within an organization are [00:01:00] also the worst, and I thought, "That's a-" "... very interesting sentence." Can you unpack that for us? 

Dan: Yeah, that sounds counterintuitive, but as soon as we unpack it, uh, often in the audience- It starts to make sense

I just immediately people are nodding their heads. It's like, "Oh, I know that team." Right. Right? "I know who that is." And so it's this idea that, you know, so often we talk about, uh, how to build the team, right? And it's how to be a manager. And, and this, and this totally makes sense why this happens. So if you think of, uh, as an individual, you were really great at your role.

You were an individual contributor. You had technical expertise in a department. You were functioning in operations or IT or HR- Mm-hmm ... whatever that might be, and now you're a manager, right? Well, what's your first priority gonna be? Well, it's gonna be operations or HR or IT, 'cause that's what I know, right?

Mm-hmm. That's my... That's the world that I live in. And so we, we, we kinda have these blinders that we put on, and we say, "How do I make the best team in this function or this area of, of the organization as possible?" And that's well-intentioned, but [00:02:00] we don't realize, uh, maybe that we've created a silo around us, and we're actually disconnected from the rest of the organization.

Right. And so you have these, you have these, like, pockets in organizations where team engagement is really high- But on that same team, they'll score very low on organizational engagement, meaning we love our team, we've become this tight-knit- Right ... community, but, like, the organization's like, "Oh, you know, the senior leaders don't get it," or, "We don't trust them," or, right, "Ah, the broken system," or, right?

There's, there's this kind of us versus them mentality. Mm-hmm. Uh, and so that's really what we're talking about, is if you've created this, this fantastic team, but you've also inadvertently created an us versus them- Mm ... you are not serving- Right ... the purpose of the organization. In fact, you might actually be creating, uh, uh, you might be a detriment, right?

This might be... You might be moving in the wrong direction because you're, you're not collaborating, uh- Right ... across departments- Yeah ... as you should. You're not communicating like you need to. There isn't transparency. You're not helping each other out. [00:03:00] Uh, w- uh, really, as managers, you were not hired just to build a great team.

You were hired to build a great organization. 

Chris: Yeah, I think that's... It, it's one of the things that, uh, we, we really enjoy this one, because it's actually absent from most other kind of books in this area, that when you step into a management role, going back to why I wrote this in the first place, is we kind of reclaimed the term manager.

It actually is a role. So whether that's a supervisor or that's a C- CEO, you are actually taking on the responsibility to be an agent of the organization in whatever that capacity is. And what we so often see, and I'll be honest, I have done this in my ex- in my, over my years in leadership. This is a great test to any managers listening to this right now.

If you have sat with your team and commiserated about the dysfunction of another group or the organization, you're probably, maybe it's unintentional, contributing to this very issue. Because your responsibility in those [00:04:00] moments, it might feel like you're building team, but what you're actually telling team is, "We don't have our act together.

We don't know what's going on." And what we need to be able to do is listen to... Their frustrations are real. We need to listen to those, and then we need to take those, and Dan, you'll have to talk about this, build bridges in the directions- Mm ... that we need to, and strengthen those bridges. And we, at least, I'll just speak from my own experience, so I won't speak on other h- leaders' behalf.

In those moments, I was actually, I thought I was building the team, but I was actually tending to my own needs. Maybe I was frustrated, but my responsibility to my team is not to complain to the other team about what the other department's not doing. I need to go and talk to the department and actually work on that relationship, and that's r- my responsibility.

We see this in, in engagement data all the time when we're out working with clients. You might see a team, as Dan mentioned, that's highly engaged, and yet maybe their relationship with their direct manager appears really good. But yet they're disengaged organizationally. [00:05:00] 

Wendy: Yeah. 

Chris: The manager is the biggest contributor to that, right?

So what that often is a sign is that manager, while their team might be producing the thing they need to produce, isn't really doing the role, the job in the way that we need them to do. 

Wendy: Yeah, I think that's a very powerful concept. I mean, we think about that even outside of work, you know, the idea that nothing creates connection like a common enemy- Right

or a common other, and that's really an unhealthy place to be. And I think sometimes managers fall prey to, and you talk about that in the book, that this intimacy fallacy where I feel connected to my team, my team feels connected to each other- Right ... at the cost of being very disconnected to the outside organization or other teams and departments.

And so you mention in the book, you know, as a team, they might assess in terms of their team health and productivity, they might be very high, [00:06:00] but they're not integrated, and they're not building- Yeah ... and strengthening- Right ... the organization. 

Dan: Yeah, and I think what you've pointed out is this, this phenomenon happens as a result of good intentions.

Chris: Mm-hmm. 

Wendy: Yes. 

Dan: Right? And so, yes, u- unfortunately, one of the fastest ways to align a group is to have a common enemy, right? Yeah. We see political parties do this all the time. Right. Right? We create this external enemy, and that can be a really powerful concept in organizations if your common enemy is something like social injustice or...

Do you know what I mean? Or it's, uh, you know- Right ... some problem that you're trying to solve in the world as a result of your purpose. Yeah. Like- It's 

Chris: not big enemies within the organization. 

Dan: Yeah, yeah. The problem is we take that internally, right? Yeah. And suddenly, our enemy is HR and senior leadership and IT, and, uh, again, well-intentioned managers, right?

If their team members are, are, are chafing against or having problem with some of these, you know, it might be the compensation package or performance review process- Right ... or, you know, IT is not being responsive enough [00:07:00] As a manager, we don't wanna take the heat for that, and we actually want our relationship with our team members to stay positive.

Mm-hmm. So the, the easy out is just say, "Oh, yeah, I totally agree with that. I don't know what's going on over there." Right? Rather than, you know, taking a more productive approach- Mm-hmm ... and saying, "Well, what... You know, have we communicated what we need? Do we really understand what they're up against?" Mm-hmm.

And, and kinda taking a more proactive approach to this. And, uh, uh, unfortunately, and, and here's the... here's where it backfires. I think most managers don't realize that when they do that, what you're actually communicating to your team member is, "Oh, you don't have power to change anything." Right? Now I- This is your safe space in this team

now I, now I, but now I see you as a manager, as you either have no power to advocate for me or make things better- Right ... or you are unwilling to use your power to advocate for me- That, that's 100% ... and make things better. And both of those are bad, right? Yeah. And so this idea of blame-shifting, while in the short term feels like, you know, is a [00:08:00] good thing for us- Yeah

we actually aren't setting ourselves up for success. Oh, for sure. Yeah. 

Wendy: Yeah, 

Chris: yeah. It, it, it's wrong on so many levels. And, and one of the things that's important, uh, just to highlight, so the frustrations, you know, staff can be having, especially when their work's part of a larger system, it's p- maybe it's part of an arm of government or maybe working for a big, a big organization, you can still validate their frustration and s- you know, "I see you're, you're frustrated with this new policy.

I could, I, I could appreciate that. Let me take your concerns forward. I'll bring those up to the group. In the meantime-" Can we agree that we're going to follow the policy as it's, as written? Because this is where we're, where we're at right now. A- and, and we'll do something about it. Yeah. So you don't need to just dismiss the frustrations.

You can validate them. But what we don't want to be doing, as you mentioned, Dan, is trying to put gas on the fire, and we ... And the moment feels good, but what we're doing is we're just- 

Dan: Yeah ... 

Chris: actually demonstrating- Yeah ... our own incompetence as a manager in that situation. Yeah. 

Dan: Um- Yeah, and your job is, regardless of what's [00:09:00] happening- Yeah

your job is to try to help your team thrive and succeed in the midst of what's happening. 

Chris: Whatever it is. 

Dan: Right? And that's it. Sometimes, yeah. And so if there's a change initiative going on that you don't agree with, and your team is frustrated about- Yeah ... uh, don't just complain about it. Your job is still to se- help them succeed- Yeah

in the midst of it. Even with an- Yeah, so like you said, validate and use your voice and influence. 

Chris: Yep. 

Dan: But let's kind of be forward-thinking. Yeah. What can we do here? Yeah. Let's- 

Chris: Yeah, and it's a reality th- that any leader's going to face at some point in time. Maybe there is a, a pr- an approach, a policy, something that you don't

It's not your first choice. That's real. But you're still ... This is the balance as an, as a leader. Even if I don't agree with that, this is the direction we're going in. I'm going to have to help the team be successful in that. That's where all of this starts to tie together- Yeah ... quite frankly. This isn't in isolation, but it's one of the pieces, and I think, Dan, you've talked about this often.

It's interesting, it's the last one, but yet it's arguably the most important one because it [00:10:00] is so impactful. And when you have the courage, I will say, to operate like this, that sends signals to your team around what really being an effective manager is about. But that sends out signals to your peers and to- Yeah

the folks above you. 

Dan: It is, I mean, it is actually so difficult. 

Chris: Yes. 

Dan: Right? Like, I, I mean, your emotions get the best of you. Of course. I mean, sometimes you really, you are struggling with disengagement, and you don't agree with- Yeah ... a decision senior leadership has made or, or anything like that. Sure. And so how do you, how do you play this role of being the link that's caught in the middle- Yeah

when you don't, when you don't really buy into it? Right. Yeah. And I think it's, it's a ... Maybe it's important just to realize, like, you get to be human, be authentic. Of 

Chris: course. 

Dan: Right? If you don't understand or don't fully agree with it, I think that's okay to say that to your team. 

Chris: Yep. 

Dan: But say, "And here's what I'm gonna do about it."

Yep. "And here's who I'm gonna talk to. And if that doesn't change, here's still what we can do." Yeah. Right? Absolutely. And so there is a ... That actually takes a remarkable amount of [00:11:00] emotional intelligence- Yeah ... to be self-aware of, like, what are the emotions and the thoughts going through my head right now?

Mm-hmm. How do I self-regulate that? So all of that goes back to essential one, start with you. Yeah. How do I show up in that moment? That's 

Chris: right. Yeah. 

Dan: Is so key because, uh, you know, we talk in our book that- Uh, you know, we often think of silos as a structural problem. I actually think of them more as a relational problem.

Wendy: Yeah. 

Dan: Right? And so, uh, it- as a manager, how do I show up in a way that I can still have and maintain strong, positive relationships with my peers and those in senior leadership, right? And so I'm trying to make sure, uh, that those are all built on trust. 

Chris: Mm-hmm. 

Dan: Right? And so it, it really... I say it's, you know, we say it, but it is difficult.

You are caught in the middle, right? Right. And you're trying to navigate all of- Yep ... these different perspectives and, and needs and desires. Uh, and so it's not a, it's... The essential five is not something to take lightly- No ... but I think it's so transformative if you can- Yeah ... manage it. 

Chris: And, and you can, and I think it- it's one of those things I, I really love what you said there, [00:12:00] Dan, about being human.

And I think oftentimes it can, and especially the higher up you move, it can be, it can actually be very isolating in moments, right? And so sometimes by default, people will use their teams to become their, you know, to lay out their frustrations. Well, that's not your team's responsibility to help you with your frustrations.

What you do need to do though, is build a network around yourself to be able to help. 'Cause you're right, going into a frustrating conversation, who can I get within my, my ecosystem to help me through? That could be someone within the organization, that could be someone outside, or even a book that reminds you what your role is.

Not to plug the book, but yeah. 

Wendy: Yeah. Yeah. So- Very easy to create silos. 

Chris: Yep. 

Wendy: It's not an org design thing. It is a manager's responsibility to be that, that link role and I think this also connects to the earlier episode where not only can people individually feel like they don't have clarity in [00:13:00] their role, but a team can feel like they don't have clarity in terms of what's going on in- Where they fit

the larger organization, and so one team wins or gets, you know, funding allocated at the- Yeah ... detriment of another team or another department. So I think it's a very dangerous place to be when a manager doesn't recognize their, their role. And I think you talk about it in the book as, like, the, the neck in the, the hourglass, that you're, you're this connecting piece.

Uh, to wrap up that section, can you explain what that hourglass... 'Cause that's just such a strong visual 

Dan: image. Yeah. Well, I mean, I... Quotes to Henry Mintzberg, a prolific author who came up with it. I mean, he talks about manager as... He- That's his quote, "You are the neck of the hourglass," right? And so it's just that visual of there's so much going on- Mm-hmm

above and below you, and there's so much going through this neck. And I, And you know, I see this metaphor, and I was like, oh, shoot, we really don't want managers to be the bottleneck. Right? But at the same time- That's like- ... [00:14:00] recognizing that, uh, you know, you're not the bottleneck, but you are, you are the connector, you are the link.

Wendy: Yes. 

Chris: Mm-hmm. 

Dan: Right? You are the one that makes sure, uh, all of that stuff can flow properly, right? Mm-hmm. And so sometimes we get in the way, and I think that really the quote is, how do we make sure that we really- Mm-hmm ... are playing our role across the organization to be the collaborator, to be the one who proliferates and shares information and promotes transparency and, and makes sure people have what they need, right?

Whether that's our team or other teams, right? And so it's... I think managers, it's just a reminder, embrace your role as the link. Mm-hmm. You're not just there for your team. You're there for the whole organization. 

Wendy: Lovely. Let's bring this, let's bring this all together. 

Dan: Mm-hmm. 

Wendy: We have gone through five essentials, uh, over this series.

This last one, we're talking about advancing the work and strengthening... Our last episode, we talked about advancing the work. Mm-hmm. Here, we're talking about strengthening the organization. Can we [00:15:00] give our listeners a fast track and a review of all of the essentials? So the first one, I'll, I'll, I'll sort of get you going here.

The first episode, we talked about the importance of a manager 

Dan: Yeah, I think, uh, really it was this overview of, uh, managers. I mean, work isn't working for a lot of people. Right. And when it comes to organizational health, managers are the most influential players, right? And, and unfortunately, they're not set up for success very often, right?

They don't get the training. Mm-hmm. They don't get the coaching. They, you know, our promotion practices are broken, all that stuff. Uh, so we wanna cr- create a book that just provides clarity on, "Hey, this is your role." Mm-hmm. "And here are some things that you can do tomorrow that are actually gonna boost your own sort of productivity and confidence and engagement and wellbeing, but also the performance engagement and wellbeing of your team."

And so the, the essential five is start with you, right? So how do you sh- how do you wanna show up as a leader, right? Just being really grounded on who you are, and that's your character, uh, it's your language, it's your [00:16:00] attitude, it's all of those things. Two is building the relationship, is learning to invest in people, right?

Those one-on-one Mm-hmm ... connections. And, and at the s- at the center of those relationships, we want the word trust to live. We want these to be relationships founded on trust. Uh, third is build the team. This is the idea of, uh, we're, we're no longer individual contributors. We have to coordinate and align a group of people towards a shared purpose, right?

And that's, that's new, right? If your first time as a manager, that's a whole new set of skills that you've never exercised before. And then essential four is advance the work. We're, we're building this team, and now we've got to try to figure out how do we create the conditions for all of us- Mm ... together to succeed and to remove the hurdles that get in the way.

Uh, and five is, uh, really what we talked about today, this idea of strengthening the organization. Uh, and so that's how... That's kind of the roadmap. And, uh, Chris, you, you talk so well about- Yeah ... like how do we actually... What do we do with this? So now we know- Yeah ... these five and we have these practices, uh, but that can actually feel a bit [00:17:00] overwhelming.

Sure. Where do I begin? 

Chris: Yeah. Well, certainly. And I think the, the, the way the book was, was written, of course, um, you know, we had an order to it, um, but it, it wasn't designed that it needs to even be sequential, uh, depending on where... Everyone's different in their journey, in their growth. Maybe just someone's just stepped into a management role, maybe someone's been into it for a number of years, and then maybe they're stuck and they're looking at a variety of...

Maybe they're rethinking their approach. And that, as you mentioned, can be very, very overwhelming. And the advice I like to give when I'm, when I'm supporting leaders, uh, at any stage in their journey is, I like to link to- link it back to when I was, uh, learning to play guitar as a, as a young musician. Um, and I had gotten to the point where I needed to learn to solo, and I was so overwhelmed at the idea of this, of soloing.

I didn't know what scale to use. I didn't know what notes within the scale to use. And so it was so intimidating, I just chose not to do it, and I thought, "I'm just gonna just [00:18:00] be a rhythm guitar player 'cause I'm just not gonna, you know, solo." And I had a, a, a great teacher that he said, "Hold on. Here, here's what we're gonna do."

He said, uh, "I'm gonna, uh, I'm gonna play a, a, a riff here, and I'm gonna give you one note. That's all you get. You get one note. You can bend it, you can shape it, you can do whatever you want with it. Uh, and you're gonna use that to solo. And when you get comfortable with that, I'm gonna give you a second note."

And what he did there is he took all of the pressure off, and I just, it felt silly soloing with one note, but that's what I did. And next thing you know, I was using all the notes and the scales and all the variety of scales. And my encouragement to any manager or aspiring manager for that matter is pick one thing.

So we talked about five essentials. Within those essentials, there's a variety of practices you can pick Pick one note and just start where you think that's going to make the biggest difference, and start doing that, doing that well, and then pick another, and pick another, and before you know it, you're using the whole scale.

So go easy on yourself. You don't have to do all of these things [00:19:00] perfectly, and as we talked about in our first episode of this series, don't worry about being great. Take the pressure off. Just get good and be consistent, and get good at one thing. That will be transformative. And then two, and then three.

So just pick your one note. That's my advice. 

Dan: I love that. You don't have to be a legendary guitarist to make beautiful music. 

Chris: Right. Exactly. Yeah. 

Dan: Right? You don't have to be great. You don't have to be a hero. Good is actually transformation. Yeah. It is beautiful. Uh, and I love the analogy because it reminds us that management is a craft.

Chris: Mm. 

Dan: It's not something that you can nail right away. It's a, it's something you hone over time with practice. 

Chris: Mm-hmm. 

Dan: And all of these five weave together to create your own unique style. 

Chris: Mm-hmm. 

Dan: Right? And so even though we might all be following the essential five framework, you're going to have managers that look wildly different from each other, but they're, but they're all doing good work.

Right. Right? Because they've learned how to show up the way they want to. Mm. They've learned how to align the team. They've learned how to strengthen the organization, but they do it in kind of ways that are unique to them, right? Yeah. And so this isn't, [00:20:00] uh, about creating clones, that everyone looks the same.

There is really is a lot of space- Right ... for a unique expression here. And so I want to zoom out from that analogy- Sure ... a little bit, 'cause I think as an individual manager, there's so much that you can do as a r- a, you know, with this book and with this framework. I want to talk to the senior leaders for a moment, to say you're, you're maybe not the one doing the solo.

You're the, you're the conductor of the orchestra. 

Chris: Mm. 

Dan: And you've got all these managers. You might be an organization that has dozens or hundreds or thousands of managers. Your job is to make sure you create the conditions for all of these managers to succeed. Because the research is clear, managers are the most influential factor in the performance, engagement, wellbeing of what's going on in your organization.

So the health of your organization rests on their shoulders disproportionately. So make sure that your systems, your HR systems, your structure, uh, how you promote, how you select, uh, how you support your managers really is top-notch. So, I, I mean, I would be, [00:21:00] uh, I would be tripping over myself figuring out how do I develop leaders and support them in my organization.

I mean, you really, all of the- Mm ... resources you, you throw in that direction, your o- your ROI might be difficult to calculate, but it's going to be exponential. Right. Right? And so, uh, I think there's a takeaway here. If you're a manager- Right ... learn to play that solo. If you've got more influence in an organization as a senior leader, look at what is the culture and the system of our organization, and are we selecting and setting up managers to succeed in the way that we need them to?

Chris: Yeah. Right. Well put. 

Wendy: Thank you. Thank you, Dan and Chris, and thank you to our listeners for joining us for this conversation. You Can Manage. These last six episodes that we have gone through the book, exploring an overview, and then each one of the essentials, um, I wanna thank you very much for the conversation, and to all of our listeners, I hope you feel empowered, encouraged, and that you have some skills and tools to manage well [00:22:00] and to create a great workplace on your team and in your organization.

Thank you very much. Thanks so much for joining us in our six-part series based on our book, You Can Manage: A Practical Guide to Becoming the Manager Everyone Wants. You can order the book directly from our website at achievecenter.com. It's also available on Amazon, and for those of you who are listeners, you can find it on Audible.

If you would like to continue the conversation or have your team work directly with the ideas we explored here over the series, please reach out to us. We offer training, uh, in a wide variety of workplace culture, management, and leadership development. Uh, we offer keynotes and lunch and learns. We can help you bring these concepts to life in your organization and with your team.

Just reach out to us at any point in time. We'd love to hear from you. And until next time, when we return to our regular programming, thank you for joining us.