Wendy: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Achieve Workplace Culture podcast, and to our special series based on our new book, You Can Manage: A Practical Guide to Becoming the Manager Everyone Wants. We're about to jump into episode five of our six-part series, and in our last episode, we talked about building the team. Our last four episodes have really focused on that people side of management. Mm-hmm. Uh, episode one, we did, like, an overview of all of the essentials, then we talked about what does it mean to start with yourself as a manager, uh, your people, your team, and now we're focusing on moving into the spotlight, moving the spotlight to the work itself Performance has kind of become a bit of a bad word, and, uh, I think in this chapter, when I read through it, I, [00:01:00] I thought, "You've really redeemed the word itself." You've, you've taken it and said, "This is actually a really good thing." Dan: Mm-hmm. Wendy: And I'm... Can you share what was behind that thinking of putting the word performance front and center, uh, in a, in the idea of how do we advance the work? Why does performance matter so much? Dan: Yeah. Well, we almost named the essential. We almost had the word- Yeah, we did ... performance in the essential. Oh, yeah. Now, we're gonna back off a little bit and, and really this idea of advancing the work. You have a purpose, you have a mission. Uh, now we have to figure out ways to move that forward. How do we create the conditions for success? And, and, and we, we talked about, well, what we're creating the conditions for is performance, right? We, we can't shy away from that- Right ... word. Performance is understanding what success looks like and, uh, meeting those expectations, right? Actually accomplishing the outcomes- Mm-hmm ... that we're looking for. And yet, you know, performance... I, I'll say this. Performance is not a bad word in some circles, particularly those in senior leadership or if you're in an ownership [00:02:00] group, 'cause the performance of your organization- Right is everything, right? That sounds great. Let's have more of it. Uh, really where we see performance kinda leave a bit of a, a sour taste in people's mouths are kind of at the employee level- Mm-hmm ... or even the middle manager, 'cause, um, performance has been used, uh, and I don't wanna say weaponized, but it's been used in a way to really, uh, kinda create spaces of judgment and- Sure unrealistic expectation. And so, you know, our annual performance review is perhaps, you know, r- you know, the whole rank and yank thing- Mm-hmm ... uh, that happened decades ago, right? Mm-hmm. That's still happening today. That still happens today, for sure. This idea that this kinda one-sided, top-down performance review creates- Right fear and uncertainty, and is often very subjective and, and, and creates kind of this injustice in our organization. Uh, and so, a- and I mean, just w- look at the news. I mean, the word performance is involved in, in so many mass layoffs, uh, in organizations. Mm. And so there's all this sort of, uh, I'll say human suffering or negative experiences that somehow get correlated- Yeah with this word, performance. And so it's, [00:03:00] uh, it's unfortunate that- Chris: Mm-hmm ... Dan: uh, we've muddied the waters, but the concept of performance- Right ... is so important for a manager to be thinking about. Chris: Yeah. No, 100%. It's, it, the, there, we have, you know, Dan... W- actually, going through this, as Dan has mentioned, we're gonna call this performance. We've had lots of conversation, Dan and I, and debate over this whole idea of performance, and we talked about this a couple of casts ago as well. And the, the challenge with it is when we approach performance, I'll say in a more traditional way, I'll just call it that way, we make it very individualistic, right? As if it's this individual- Mm ... is the only contributing factor to whether or not they're successful. And we know that's not the truth. There are so many other contributing factors to someone performing well, an organization performing well, a team performing well, or an individual performing well that contribute to it, and it's not just, you know, pull yourself up by your bootstraps, which is where I think the collision happens when you get into those performance [00:04:00] review pieces. We're making it about an individual, but we're not really considering how the system the employee is working within, uh, operates, and we call that out in the book as far as the, the contributors to motiv- or to performance, Dan. Want to g- want to take us, uh, take us there? Dan: Yeah. I mean, you've nailed it. I think this individualistic attitude is, is part of the problem. Yep. For sure. And, and when we actually look at what contributes to performance, uh, I mean, so much of it isn't actually about the individual- Mm-hmm ... right? It's the environment that they're in, and so there's a, there's a, a perf- there's a, a formula that comes out of behavior science, and I can't give you the proper reference for it right now, but it goes, uh, performance or behavior, uh, equals M times A times E, which means motivation times ability times environment, right? So it's the idea that these are the components, right? So there has to be a motivation. Chris: Mm-hmm. Dan: I, I want to have to... I, I have to want to do a thing, right? So there has to be some level of motivation, and ability. I have to have the ability to do it, right? And those, [00:05:00] uh, those operate together, so if, you know, something is really challenging, I need high ability and motivation. Chris: Mm-hmm. Dan: Right? And so if those are out of sync, uh, you know, if your motivation is low and, and the challenge is too high, you're gonna bail, right? And sometimes your ability is high, and you'll do it, but you don't have much motivation, but you can s- you can still accomplish it- Right ... 'cause your ability is high, and so those can work together. Mm-hmm. Uh, they kind of compensate for each other. Uh, but really the most important one, the, the one where most of the performance gains lives, is in the E. It's in the environment. Environment, yep. Yeah. It's, uh, I mean, if you, if you take one person out of one team and put them in another team, you can have a low performer suddenly absolutely crushing it. It's like, well, what's going on there, right? Yeah. I thought they were a low performer, and that's the language we- Right ... we talk about, right? Sure. We talk about, you know, how many high-potential, high performers do you have, and we label individuals, and it's like, but that low performer is suddenly a high performer. What changed? Right. The environment changed. Now suddenly they're in a space where maybe they have clarity. Right. Right? The manager actually pays attention to them, cares for them. Mm-hmm. Their [00:06:00] role is clear. Uh, all of these pieces are- Right ... are put in place, and suddenly they're, they're excelling, right? And so it's... To, uh, for a manager, and this was in our, our, our first essential, it's the mindset of embracing complexity . Chris: Yeah. Dan: Uh, there is a systemic, uh, element that we need to be thinking through, and, and how do all of these pieces play together to really unlock or create the conditions for performance for people? So that's the level that managers need to live at. Right. We often think of performance as Well, I need to give feedback, right? Yeah. And it's this, like, very one-on-one- Sure ... relational communication driven thing, and hey, that's great. Helpful feedback is fantastic for helping people grow- Yeah ... and identifying blind spots. I would love for managers to pull back from that and spend more time thinking about if, like, A, what does performance look like? Let's agree on that together out in the open. Yeah. And then if it's not happening, we really... I, I love this. We're... Let's ac- let's actually have a performance review conversation- Chris: Right Dan: that's not about the inv- individual, right? Let's have a... Let's review performance [00:07:00] and say, "Okay, so this is what our expectation was, which we both agreed on together. Uh, it's not happening, so now let's talk about what those contributing factors might be." Yeah. Maybe it might be motivation or ability. Mm-hmm. That's great. Let's just talk about it- Yeah ... and identify it. But we can also identify, well, there was the lack of information or resources, or I didn't have the opportunity, or workload challenges, or... You know, there's all these- Yeah ... other pieces that come up. I would love it if performance review conversations really were just a more objective, shared conversation over what were the hurdles that we experienced- Yeah. That, that- ... and how do we clear Chris: them? And that's it, that we experienced- Yeah ... as opposed to that you experienced, that got in the way, and we make that, that, that individualistic piece. And one of the things to add to that, um, so I really... That d- that connects well with me, the, you know, the motivation, ability, and environment, 'cause those are the, the key. That is the in- individual and the collective coming together. And one of the things that's really important Motivation and ability. Ability isn't competence. 'Cause you could have someone that might not yet be competent to do something, that [00:08:00] doesn't mean they don't have the ability. That's actually why I really like the use of the term ability. So do they have the ability to be competent in this position? Yes. Awesome. They're not there yet, and that's okay. Dan: Oh, you're thinking, yeah, you're thinking potential almost. Yeah. Chris: Yeah. Dan: Do they have the potential ability? Chris: Yeah. Yeah. But they- Yeah ... but that's it. You could have someone that's not yet competent. I just wanna put that in there because you could have someone that might not yet be competent in a role, but in the right environment, and they're motivated, the, the potential can be realized, and they can be competent, which is why, that's why I, the, the, the, the use of the term ability is so, is so important. Dan: Yeah. And yet, I mean, I think that mindset of believing people have potential is so important- Right ... as a manager. Chris: Yeah. Yeah. That's how it connects. Dan: Also, sometimes people don't have the competence, right? Well, Chris: that's it. Dan: And so let's be real about that- Right ... and figure out, do they need coaching? Do they need training? Do they need- Yeah ... uh, you know, there's all sorts of ways to increase that competence. There Chris: you go. Dan: So then let's figure out ways to Chris: do that. And, and if we uncover through that together that they actually just don't have the ability to, to, to do the role, w- [00:09:00] okay then. That's- Yeah ... going to affect performance. But that, that isn't a, it isn't an individualistic thing that all comes out- Yeah ... from, from, well, we can- Dan: Well, that's the, okay, so I, I share this story in the book, but I remember, uh, uh, I, I w- I worked in nonprofit for years, and then I took a brief, uh, stint in construction. I wanted to learn carpentry. Right. Yes. This was way out in left field for me, okay? Like, I, from s- social work environment to- Chris: Mm-hmm ... Dan: g- to a construction site. And I remember, uh, my manager, the, the owner of the company, uh, was, was getting a little bit... He, he saw me kinda, like, just standing around, and I was thinking, right? There was, like, the wheels were turning of, like, what do I do next here? And, and, and I don't really know. And he's like, he's like, "I don't, you know, when you're standing around, I want you to be anticipating what's needed next and just start moving to the next thing. If you're waiting for someone to, like, cut that lumber, I just want you to move to the next thing. Anticipate what's needed and do it." And Chris: do it, yep. Dan: And I just remember looking and I'm thinking But I don't know how to build a house. Chris: Yeah. I don't know what's Dan: next. Yeah, I can't anticipate what's next. Yeah. I'm gonna be just, like, making things up. I- Yes ... you don't want me doing that. I was like, [00:10:00] "What I need is for you to help me and coach me and give me the knowledge- Right of what the next thing is," right? Yeah, yeah. And so it was like he was expecting me to just do it, and I'm sitting there thinking, "I need help." Right. "I actually need a coach in this situation." Right. "I have the potential to perform really well." Right, exactly, Chris: and the ability. Dan: Yeah. Chris: And the ability. Dan: I need, uh, but I need support, right? Yeah. And so it's- Chris: Yeah. Wendy: Yeah, and I think often we're- Chris: Capability, Wendy: I guess. Yeah ... we're, we're, we're taught to believe it's part of our environment that performance is, part of it is speed, right? Like, go fast, get it done. Yeah. Move faster on the construction site. Sure. Get it built. And yet we're not in F1. We might watch it, but we're not in F1, right? It's not about speed. Right. And you also, you know, in the book you talk about it's not about managing performance, it's about enabling performance. Right. And sometimes that means we actually do need to slow down and coach- Yeah ... and take a look at the environment and what's, what's going on in the larger context. In [00:11:00] the book, you talk about, uh, Deming and a study around the really powerful effects of environment. Mm-hmm. Uh, can you share with myself and with the listeners? Dan: Yeah, sure. I mean, the, the numbers, uh, are a little bit different based on where you read it. But Edwards Deming was, uh, really, uh, you know, one of the kind of the, the, the grandfather of- Right total quality management, or you often think of him when you think of, like, lean manufacturing or Toyota, the Toyota way. Uh, and really early on, I mean, he was, he was the champion and the advocate for continuous improvement. Right. Right? And, uh, a- and I would say one of the people responsible for kind of the, the success of the Japanese automotive industry in the '80s. Uh, and anyway, his quote was, "94% of the problem is a systems problem. Only 6% is a people problem." Mm-hmm. Right? And so if we look at, you know, hey, we're not hitting our outcomes as a team or as an organization, it's so easy to say, "This is a people problem. We don't have A [00:12:00] players. We don't have high potential people." Whatever label you wanna do, we need to, we need to get rid of our bottom 10%, and we need to turn this over- Right ... because people are the problem. Uh, and he, and, and really, he said and proved through his methodology that, hold on, you can keep these people, and if you change the system, they're gonna perform better, right? So quit, like, you don't need this high turnover. Right. Right? You don't need to rank and yank people and rate their performance and get them out. You need to figure out, how do I create the conditions and enable these people to perform because they can. Chris: Right. Yeah. And I- I, I think you said that your system is perfectly designed for the results that you're getting. Dan: Yeah. Chris: Right? So whatever those results are, if you aren't happy with them, look at your system. Yeah. Wendy: Yeah. Chris: Um, yeah. And, and we see that time and time a- again. Uh, there are those rare moments where it could be an individual thing, but it's so rare. And when you see your leaders just say, "Oh, it's just so hard to find good people," is it, is it really hard to find good people? As I, I meet good [00:13:00] people every day. But is the system they're operating in getting you to where you need them to be and where they need to be? Yeah. Dan: Yeah. And I often get pushback from managers, you know, when we say this whole- Yeah ... you know, 94% of the problem is a, a systems problem. Uh, and they just look at me as like, "Matt, you don't know my people." Chris: Yeah. Right. Yep. Dan: It's like, it's definitely the people. And then it's like, I don't wanna discredit that. Like, sometimes people- Sure ... really are in the wrong role. Chris: Oh, yes. Dan: Right? This isn't, you know- That's a system ... this job is not designed for their- Yeah ... particular abilities, interests, and passions. That's, that's fine. Identify that and then find a place for them to excel. Sure. And sometimes they just aren't, you know, they're n- not even the right person for your organization. Sure. I agree with that as a possibility. I just don't think we should go there first. Chris: Well, and even if that is a possibility, a system got you there. Yeah. You hired them in, you brought them in, you know, all of those things, I think that, that links back to it. And I think even hearing, you know, you share that, Dan, kind of validates what we're talking about here, that that's an environmental piece. Dan: Yeah. Chris: Right? And so you have managers... And don't get me wrong, you're [00:14:00] absolutely right, the manager's frustration's real. They're not getting what they need. I, I, I get, understand that. But if it's just like, "You don't know my people," you know, "No one's good here," it's like, well, what sort of environment do you think that is creating for people if that is... 'Cause even if you don't say that to them, they know that's what you're feeling. Dan: Yeah. Chris: Yeah. Right? So it all links back to everything we've been talking about here. Wendy: Yeah, so that improving the system- Yeah ... is very important. It's the context in which people are, are working in. You outline two other areas in the book in terms of advancing the work. You talk about mapping the strategy and creating accountability. For our listeners, can you give us just a little bit of an overview? Let's start with map the strategy. And you talk about the football, the scorecard. Can you elaborate on that idea? If we're thinking about advancing the work, mapping the strategy, what does that mean for a manager? Chris: Yeah. Well, it's getting clear on how, what does success look like, as Dan mentioned before, and how we're actually gonna get out there, [00:15:00] uh, as, and not leave it to assumptions, right? This, it does come back to what is the system in which we're gonna use to get there, and if you use, uh, football as analogy, there is a system at play that's going to advance even though there's some great people there. Dan, feel free to chime in on this one. Dan: Yeah. The, uh, I mean, mapping strategy is really... I mean, sometimes I, I included this in the book and people pushed back a little bit 'cause they're like, "Well, I'm a manager. My job isn't strategy. That's, that's a- Right ... that's what the executive team does." Mm-hmm. I was like, "No, no, you're abusing this word." Strategy is every manager's job. Right. It's every team has to figure out what is the strategy will we use to accomplish our goals and overcome our challenges- Right to accomplish our purs- purpose. So every team has to think strategy. Every manager is a strategist. Part of that is getting really clear on what are our challenges and what are our goals and how can we get creative- Mm ... in overcoming those things. Uh, and to your example, Wendy, what you talked about is let's just make sure we have a really good idea of do we all know what success looks like? Right. Like, do we know, uh, when to cheer? Do we know when to... So there was this, uh, [00:16:00] example, the story of, uh, it was one of the Heath brothers in their book, Decisive, that they read years ago, and, uh, they were at this college football game in the US, which, I mean, we're in Canada, but so college football's not as big a deal here. It's massive. Massive, yeah. In the US, huge deal. Uh, and he was at this game, and actually, there was just, I think it was H- Hurricane Katrina had just happened recently and took out the scoreboard at this, uh, college stadium. And so they had no score- scoreboard, but they were watching this football game. He said normally this, like, electric audience was suddenly quiet, disengaged, because it's like, "Wait a minute, what's the score? What just happened? Who, how much time is left?" Right. Right? They're like, we just, we've lost all sense of context. People didn't know when to stand up and cheer. They didn't know when to... And so this audience was just kinda disengaged and on their phones. I was like, "Oh," and he ma- and he makes the connection as like, oh, this is so much like organizations, right? When we don't know the score, we tend to be disengaged because it's like, "Are we winning? Who's winning? What does winning even look like?" Right. "How much time is left? What are we, what are we trying to [00:17:00] do here?" And I, I just think as leaders, like, your scorecard doesn't need to be super robust and detailed, but you need to have some shared idea- Chris: Right Dan: of what, what are we gonna, what are we gonna see when success happens? What will happen that will cause us to- Right ... high-five each other and stand up and cheer and, and, and what will happen that will cause us to regroup and take a timeout- And know what, yeah, when we are- ... and figure out what do we need to do different, right? Like- Yeah. When do Chris: we, yeah, when do we need to adjust our strategy to- Yeah ... to carry Dan: on. But it's such a, but it's something that, uh, honestly, most teams function without. We don't have a scorecard. Chris: Right. Dan: We don't know- Chris: Absolutely ... Dan: we don't know when to win, and so to me, that's a key part of how do we advance the work Let's at least clarify what performance looks like. Wendy: Yeah. So map the strategy, improve the systems. Uh, can we talk just very briefly about the third element, the empowered accountability? Chris: Yeah. Well, I, I think just, you know, that, what built this way by design, but I think that's by doing that, then you're actually empowering people to be able to perform within that.[00:18:00] Uh, and then, then now we, now that we can hold the system accountable, the individuals within the system, it... Th- these are all, all of the components needed are now in play. Normally, accountability is another word that has been dirtied. Mm-hmm. We j- when something's not going wrong, we just kind of jump to accountability. Who are we holding accountable? But w- by em- you know, empowered accountability is a wh- is a whole different approach that's really looking at All the subtotal that now we actually can go into this, and you actually, in many cases, Dan, feel free to speak it, speak into this. People are taking accountability on their own, 'cause they know full well where they fit, how they've contributed, what this, what systema- systemic piece. That's the, that's what this all- Yeah ... Wendy: sums up to. That makes so much sense, because you've, you've got the strategy, you've improved the system, and now there's clarity between the strategy and the system. Yeah. And now the individual finds their place in that, and so that accountability becomes very transparent, actually. Dan: Yeah, that's right. Make it ha- make it hard to hide low performance, right? Mm. Yeah. There's, uh, one of our, [00:19:00] uh, actually endorsers for the book said, "Make accountability inevitable." Yeah. "Bake it into the system," right? Don't rely on, you know, a manager spotting it and giving it feedback. And so this idea of, like, empowered accountability, the phrase, is just recognizing empowerment and accountability often live on a bit of a spectrum. Mm-hmm. And you can be too far in either direction. Right. Right. So sometimes in our effort to empower people, we're actually just doing absentee management. It's that same thing. It's like, "Yeah, I believe in you. Go for it." Yeah. "I believe you have potential. Rah-rah." Uh, but I'm, like, way over here, and I don't know what you're doing, and I have no support to you whatsoever. Uh, if we go too far on the other side, and we're just all about accountability, it can really start to feel like micromanagement and judgment. Yeah. Right. And we make it about the individual again. And so this is, again, empowered accountability is, yes, we know what success looks like. We will hold each other accountable to it, but we're also going to design a system- Right in which when we... Yeah, so that scorecard concept. When we achieve or when we don't, it will just be so abundantly obvious. It's Chris: there. Dan: It's there. Right? Yeah. Yeah. We just, it'll, it'll, it'll prompt us to have a [00:20:00] conversation or to do a review so that we can get better. Chris: Yeah, and if all of this is where all of this really does come together, if all of that is in play, and, you know, using someone rec- using the drop the ball analogy, someone would call that out and recognize why that was. And, and we can even have a conversation. I could see why that even happened, and that's, none of that's about an individual. That's about a, a, a collective thing that we're doing, even if individual's taking accountability for it, so. Wendy: That's fantastic. You know, for the listeners, we're not gonna get into all of the practices. I'm gonna mention them, and I'm gonna put you on the spot again to ask you for, if you had to direct our listeners to pick one, so there's team scorecards that you talk about in the book. You have a decision-making, uh, process called deciding how to decide. Uh, you also have another decision-making process where you make it safe to try things, to take on risks. And you talk a lot about the meeting rhythm. Can you pick one of those, give a little bit of [00:21:00] context so that our listeners have a takeaway? And if they want to fully explore those practices, they can, they can pick up the book. Chris: Yeah. I, I have to just jump on what we were just talking about, and, uh, uh, because it, it's so often missed, and, you know, it, it, it's something that I can miss often myself is, is that scorecard. Let's get crystal clear on what we're, where we're at. And, um- What are we trying to accomplish in, in how we're doing? So if we can't really measure against that, going back to what we talked about before- Yep ... there's no clarity there. So that's, that's where I'm going. Dan: Critical. Uh, I, I wanna just... I hesitate to even say it, because we could talk for hours on this. I, I wanna say the meeting rhythm, right? There's so much hate, uh, thrown on- Right ... there's so much shade thrown on meetings today. Yes. And I get it. A lot of them suck. Uh, but I think whether we like it or not, they are the core backbone and structure for your communication system. Mm-hmm. They really are, right? Sometimes we have to... I remember the quote, "Sometimes if you wanna get people on the same page, you gotta get them around the same table." Now, that might be a virtual table, but we have to figure out how and when do we get people together for what type of [00:22:00] conversation. So let's, again, just like throwing a bunch of people together doesn't make them a team, putting a bunch of people in a room doesn't make that a meeting. Chris: Right. Dan: That's just me- that's just wide open, unstructured conversation, right? So as a manager, you actually have to think a little bit more like a facilitator. Say, "What do we want to accomplish in this time together? What is the conversation we wanna have? What are the conditions we wanna create in this room? What's the agenda? What's the purpose?" All of those things. And so a manager as facilitator, to me, is such a key set of skills and a role to embrace. Wendy: Lovely. In summary, I'm hearing loud and clear that, uh, performance is actually a really good word, and that when managers can clarify their strategy, they can improve the system, balance empowerment with accountability, that performance becomes a natural outcome of that. So not something to be done to people, but something for managers to empower their teams towards performance. And if you [00:23:00] enjoyed this episode- ... please join us for our final episode, where we're gonna be talking about strengthening the organization. Again, thank you so much for joining us for this conversation. If you enjoyed it and would like to go deeper, or have your team work directly with the ideas that we explored here today, we would really love to hear from you. We offer training in the area of management, along with keynotes, lunch and learns, that bring these concepts to life a- for your organization. So just reach out to us. We'd love to start the conversation. And if the content resonated with you, you can order the book directly from our website at achievecenter.com. It's also available on Amazon. And for those of you who would rather listen, you can also find it on Audible. Until next time, thanks for listening, and we'll see you in the next episode, where we will be talking about strengthening the organization.