00:00:04:21 - 00:00:41:01 Speaker 2 Welcome to the Achieve Workplace Culture podcast. I'm Wendy Lowen, and I am very pleased to be your host for this particular episode. But also for the following episodes. We're doing a special series on our new book. You can manage A Practical Guide to becoming the manager everyone wants. People move into management roles without a whole lot of background in training, and they often find that, you know, they don't know what they should be doing, what they should be focusing on, and how to measure success. 00:00:41:03 - 00:01:06:10 Speaker 2 This book is an effort to address those issues and to fix them. I am very fortunate to be here with the authors, Daniel Anthony Derrickson and Chris Downey, and we are going to be exploring over the course of the next several episodes, the ideas and the concepts in this book. So to start us off, I am very curious. 00:01:06:10 - 00:01:18:19 Speaker 2 You've taken a lot of time, you've reviewed a lot of research and you've put this down into a book. So why this book and why now? 00:01:18:21 - 00:01:36:12 Speaker 3 Oh, man. Yeah, the book is for managers. But honestly, what we're talking about is so much bigger than being a manager, right? We're talking about, organizations, the health of organizations, the health of the people inside the organizations, and, and work in general. And the place that it has in our life, a manager stands at the center of all of that. 00:01:36:12 - 00:01:58:12 Speaker 3 But, and we've often talked about work just get such a bad rap in most people's, vocabulary. It's, you know, it's it's a it's a necessary evil. You got to go to work, right? Go to the grind. Get the paycheck. You have to work. And I think we forget that we need to work, right? Work is actually, like, a really key part of how we live. 00:01:58:12 - 00:02:21:18 Speaker 3 A full and meaningful life. To be productive, to contribute to society. These are all things that are, like, inextricably linked to our mental health and well-being. Right. So that's why, you know, research backs it up. I used to work with seniors quite a bit, in a previous career. And you see how retirement and a lack of work correlates with cognitive decline, right. 00:02:21:18 - 00:02:41:21 Speaker 3 And so we kind of recenter this idea that, you know, we have to change the narrative that work socks to work is necessary and can be a really value add to your life. Contrast that to the current situation in which it isn't. For a lot of people, that's the problem. Work can be great. Work can be a meaningful part of your life. 00:02:41:22 - 00:02:50:08 Speaker 3 And it isn't. Yeah. So that's the that's kind of the the bigger umbrella of what are we talking about in this book and why did we put it out there. But what do you add to that? 00:02:50:09 - 00:03:14:09 Speaker 1 I agree, I think just maybe simply from my perspective is we've we've accepted that work sucks for far too long and it doesn't have to be that way. And, all of the, the numbers, as Dan mentioned, the research and just beyond even research, what people know to be true, we've accepted, the unacceptable for too long. 00:03:14:15 - 00:03:35:02 Speaker 1 And we know managers are at the, center of that. So let's tackle that. So why now? Work should suck, and it needs to stop really simply. But and the fastest way to do that is through, building up capacity within with, with the manager, the people that are responsible for creating those conditions. 00:03:35:06 - 00:04:00:12 Speaker 2 Yes, yes. Well, and as I'm hearing the two of you talking, you talked about the definition of work that when we even hear that word, we think of like it being arduous and labor and difficult and not necessarily a positive thing. And yet you're making it very clear. We all show up to work every day. It's a part of our ongoing experience. 00:04:00:14 - 00:04:07:06 Speaker 2 Wouldn't it be nice if we sort of work as a positive thing? And then we came to work and we experienced it as. 00:04:07:09 - 00:04:07:19 Speaker 1 Yeah. 00:04:07:20 - 00:04:09:04 Speaker 2 Something that was positive? 00:04:09:05 - 00:04:33:12 Speaker 1 Well, one thing that I learned from Dan actually went through the writing process, and I hadn't really thought about this, before, but he takes me articulate, articulate so well, is we need to work not just from a dollars and cents perspective. As human beings, we have a fundamental need to be productive. We we we don't do well when we just sit around and don't produce something or do something. 00:04:33:14 - 00:04:50:10 Speaker 1 So work in and of itself isn't actually fundamentally a bad thing in fact, it's a good thing and we need it to be successful just as people. But we've allowed it. So we've created poor working experiences. But the work isn't the problem. It's how we're experiencing. Work is. 00:04:50:12 - 00:05:08:15 Speaker 3 Well, we creates the low bar then. Right? So if if work is the grind and it's not supposed to be good, right, then when it isn't, we're just like, man, I guess, you know, that's just work. So we accept it and we move on and and we often say it's it's not okay for work to not be okay. 00:05:08:17 - 00:05:27:12 Speaker 3 Yeah. And so we have to we have to move the bar up. It's like no work can be great. You can enjoy work, it can add value to your life, and it can actually contribute to how you are growing and experiencing, life as a human being. That's the bar, right? It's not way down here, it's way up here. 00:05:27:12 - 00:05:45:20 Speaker 3 And so if we're not experiencing this, then we really do need to figure out what has gone wrong in the workplace and how do we improve it. And that's our premise for this book, is the bar is up here. Reality is down here, right? It's working isn't great for a lot of people. Research and experience show that. 00:05:45:22 - 00:05:49:12 Speaker 3 And so we have to address the gap. We think managers stand at the center of that. 00:05:49:15 - 00:06:07:01 Speaker 2 Right? Right. So if there is a gap between what we believe work can be and the experience that people have. Yeah, we believe that management is that missing piece that we should focus on. If we want to change the experience of people when they show up to work each and every day. 00:06:07:02 - 00:06:21:01 Speaker 1 Yeah, I'd say it's beyond belief. We know it to be true. The biggest contributing, contributing factor to someone's wellness at work and even outside of work, or at least their their mental health is the direct manager. 00:06:21:03 - 00:06:36:12 Speaker 3 Yeah. So let's just break it down. Okay. So when we say work should be good, what do we mean by that. Right. So we often use the term organizational health that stands at the center of work and purpose as an organization for for an organization to be healthy. We think there's at least three dials that should be on your dashboard, right. 00:06:36:12 - 00:06:55:15 Speaker 3 Number one is performance. Your organization has a purpose. It has a mission. You need to figure out ways to accomplish that. Well, right. So when you, you know, when you put your foot on the gas, you should be able to move forward and execute your strategy. Organizations that aren't healthy, they spin, they're wheels. They're bureaucratic. We're we're exerting loads of effort and energy. 00:06:55:17 - 00:07:18:16 Speaker 3 But it feels like we're not moving forward. Right. So performance in a healthy organization performs well. Second, we're looking at the people healthy organization includes engagement right. So that's number two is everyone feels a sense of commitment, enthusiasm and energy towards their role and the purpose of the organization. So they're in the right spot. They're in a role that matches their strengths. 00:07:18:16 - 00:07:41:22 Speaker 3 They enjoy doing it, as they're engaged. Right. Managers are engaged. People are engaged. And and you could just leave it there. You could say, well, that's my dashboard for success is performance and engagement. And we see this in lots of organizations, particularly nonprofit health care, kind of very service oriented roles. And what we find is that you can be highly engaged in burnout, right? 00:07:41:22 - 00:08:04:07 Speaker 3 There's a I mean, burnout is on the rise. Over half of people reported moderate to severe symptoms of burnout in 2024. So we know that's real. So there's a third measure right. So on our dashboard of organizational health we have to include well-being right. So it's yes we're performing well. People are engaged. And individuals mental health and well-being is supported in the workplace. 00:08:04:07 - 00:08:21:23 Speaker 3 Right. It's not detracting from it. It's not extracting from them. It's actually contributing to people's mental health and well-being. So all of those together, that's what we're talking about when we say organizational health and is work okay? In order for work to be okay, all three of those dials need to be need to be full. 00:08:22:00 - 00:08:43:11 Speaker 1 Yeah. And whether that's organizationally. So that's at a macro level. But I also at a micro level. So at an individual level those three things contribute to people doing well at work and contributing to organizational health, as Dan was saying. So it's it's kind of a both in and out. So as leaders, we need to be looking at the big picture to make sure those three dials are where they need to be, but also at the individual level as well. 00:08:43:13 - 00:08:59:23 Speaker 2 So am I hearing you say, if I'm a manager listening to this podcast and I'm trying to figure out what are the things that I should be focusing on, you've identified three really critical pieces that are the manager's role. 00:09:00:05 - 00:09:21:15 Speaker 3 Yeah. And you know, people might we can debate about this if you want. I really do think the primary purpose of a manager in an organization is organizational health, right? It's that dashboard of performance, engagement, well-being. That's why you exist. That's what the role of a manager is meant to be doing. You're not the one out on the front lines executing. 00:09:21:15 - 00:09:36:05 Speaker 3 You're building a healthy organization that is able to consistently and predictably and sustainably accomplish its purpose. Right. And that includes performance, engagement, well-being. So as a manager, yes, this is your dashboard for success. This is why you're in this role. 00:09:36:07 - 00:09:57:00 Speaker 1 Yeah, that was one of the things that became really clear as we were doing the research and even just prepping for the book, I think, and myself included, how I've historically looked at the manager's role. I saw performance as the ultimate indicator of whether they were doing their job, and I believed in wellbeing and engagement. That's important. But it's like, no, we're here to perform. 00:09:57:02 - 00:10:19:03 Speaker 1 And what going through this process, we realized is, yes, for sure. That's one of the things. But engagement and well-being, this is and there's going to be moments where you lead on one over the other, but one is no more important than the other. I think that was the big takeaway for me, and I think that's when we think about why fundamentally had it wrong is, above all, performance trumped everything. 00:10:19:05 - 00:10:38:11 Speaker 1 And I think if that's the case, then we're always going to put well-being what we say. It's important. We're going to be extractive about the process engagement. Same thing. So it's actually it's the it's this, this the three things together that build that strength. If it's just one, it's not sustainable. 00:10:38:12 - 00:10:40:09 Speaker 3 Not in the long term. No. Right. 00:10:40:10 - 00:11:05:12 Speaker 2 So am I. I'm hearing you say a manager's role is in a way facilitative. They are facilitating and paying attention to these three elements for everyone on their team, everyone. And I'm going to use the word everyone that they're leading. And I found it very interesting in your book, how you talk about the distinction between management and leadership. 00:11:05:12 - 00:11:17:12 Speaker 2 And I don't know exactly what the words are, but you say, let's not be too precious about it because of a manager is facilitating something. In essence, you are leading. 00:11:17:14 - 00:11:21:08 Speaker 2 Can you explain that idea as you've presented in the book? 00:11:21:09 - 00:11:39:03 Speaker 1 Well, one of the things we wanted to actually reclaim the term manager, because it's been kind of, soiled, I would say in recent years we'd see all sorts of, you know, social media posts about leaders do this and managers do that. Managing is a job like this is an actual job, but we know it's one of the most important ones. 00:11:39:05 - 00:12:06:14 Speaker 1 So let's call that back out. And and what we talk about is you can lead from anywhere. But when you manage, when you are responsible for others through the work that you do, for all the things that Dan just talked about, you are there to manage. Now, leading is a component of it, but we actually wanted to reclaim that because what we have found is that when people just lean on the fundamental leadership qualities, a whole lot of stuff doesn't get done well. 00:12:06:14 - 00:12:26:03 Speaker 1 And it's those things that provide the clarity and what people need to be able to do well, be engaged and perform at their highest level. So part of what we, you know, putting manage in the title, that was with intention because we actually want to reclaim this, and do it right. I would say versus the way things have gone for the last little bit. 00:12:26:03 - 00:12:44:08 Speaker 3 Totally. Yeah. And we didn't even give it much attention in the book. It's literally a sidebar. Yeah. It's like, oh, and by the way, some of you were waiting for us to talk about the difference between leadership and management. I think there's been way too much airtime given to how they're different, and one isn't the other, and leadership is the aspiration. 00:12:44:08 - 00:13:05:00 Speaker 3 And that's who you need to be. You need to be a leader, right? You're charismatic, you're visionary, your people are following you. And managers are these like bureaucratic pencil pushing, right? They just become villainized as this like caricature of, you know, Dilbert boss. The point here it evil boss or something, right? Like it's just, I think I think that's a shame. 00:13:05:00 - 00:13:26:16 Speaker 3 I think managers have incredible opportunity to do great work. And the two concepts are just they're not at odds. They're just fundamentally different things. Leadership is a human dynamic that can happen between anybody, anybody who has influence over another person. One person is willing to follow someone else's direction. That's leadership happens everywhere, happens at work, happens at home, happens in neighborhoods, whatever. 00:13:26:16 - 00:13:51:04 Speaker 3 That leadership is a thing that happens everywhere. Manager is a defined set of roles in an organizational context, right? Right. So they're not they're not even the same thing. To be compared, a manager needs to be a good leader, but it also needs to do all these other things that are defined by these set of roles. Yeah. And I think that's part of the problem that our book addresses is we don't know what this defined set of roles is. 00:13:51:05 - 00:14:07:02 Speaker 3 What is a manager you need to be doing? What is their purpose? How do they spend their time? How do they grow? How do they become better? That's why we wrote it. And we want to redeem the concept, to say this is what you do, it really, really matters. Leadership is a part of it. But honestly, we're not even talking about that. 00:14:07:04 - 00:14:09:15 Speaker 3 It's okay to just call yourself a manager, right? 00:14:09:17 - 00:14:32:05 Speaker 2 Well, and I think you're doing more than just reclaiming, the word manager. I think you're elevating. Yeah. So that people who are in a management role really see the impact that they have on not just performance, but engagement. You know, and well-being and how critical that is. And we can't just separate the operational tasks from the relational element. 00:14:32:07 - 00:14:37:12 Speaker 2 You accomplish your operational goals together, you know, through relationships. 00:14:37:14 - 00:14:52:16 Speaker 1 And one of the things I want to be we want to be clear about this. We don't want to be piling on on the on the manager, the people that are in there. We know that the people that step into these roles are good people that are wanting to do good work. But as Dan's articulating, they don't necessarily know what that is and what to focus on. 00:14:52:16 - 00:15:11:20 Speaker 1 And that was one of the things that much like me, right, maybe we're not reclaiming the word manager, maybe reclaiming it and elevating it would be a good way of looking at it. One of the things when we we set out to do this is so many books are written and we celebrate great leadership and, you know, heroes really as leaders. 00:15:11:20 - 00:15:40:20 Speaker 1 And from our perspective, the need for heroics is, in fact, we probably celebrated the wrong characteristics because if we're managing well, the need to come in and save the day doesn't necessarily exist. So I think if we don't, we encourage managers not to worry about being great, right? This is actually about showing up, being consistent, being committed to doing some fundamental things. 00:15:40:22 - 00:15:49:05 Speaker 1 And that's good. Be good. And that's pretty great. If we can be good and consistent, we're going to create some really great workplaces. 00:15:49:07 - 00:15:51:19 Speaker 3 Yeah. Being a good manager can be a little bit boring actually. 00:15:51:20 - 00:15:52:07 Speaker 1 Sure. 00:15:52:08 - 00:16:15:06 Speaker 3 Right. You can be a good manager consistently creates performance engagement and well-being. And they do it through the little things. It's how they lead meetings. It's how they design workflows. It's how they give feedback. It's right. It's it's not it's not this rousing speech from on high and, you know, charging forward. It's hey, we're aligned. We've got a mission and we're working together. 00:16:15:06 - 00:16:18:03 Speaker 3 Let's figure out ways to coordinate and do that. Well, like it's just. 00:16:18:05 - 00:16:39:11 Speaker 1 Sometimes the work itself might be boring, but the outputs not. I think that's really that keeps the things like Dan saying don't necessarily to be heroics. These grand speeches from up on high. But if you have this influence on how people experience work and they are doing well, they're engaged and they're getting things done, that's that's pretty great. 00:16:39:13 - 00:17:00:13 Speaker 3 Yeah. Well, I mean, you can look at external research, but the survey we did, I mean, we talked to almost a thousand employees across Canada, in North America. And story after story and time again, it's just, this is what great managers do. And it's not it's not the big speeches. It's not the courageous, bold moves. It's the. 00:17:00:15 - 00:17:18:10 Speaker 3 They heard me. They cared about me. They made a change. They removed a hurdle for me. They write like it's just. It's the little everyday things that makes a manager really great. That in the long term, it's those little things done consistently over time that transforms teams and organizations. 00:17:18:12 - 00:17:45:04 Speaker 1 Great. And that's really the main maybe we bring this down to is what we put in here. It's not everything that you need to do, but it is the fundamental things that if you can commit to doing that, that will lead to good outcomes. So it's not absolutely everything. It's not the definitive list, but it is going to five key things that if you can get good at that will consistently reach the results that you want. 00:17:45:06 - 00:18:13:20 Speaker 2 Okay, Chris, that is, that is just, I have to jump on that. Five key things before we get there is there's something you can give our listeners in terms of what they can focus on, a take away from our time here. And then I'm going to ask Dan after that to wrap it up with giving us a sneak peek into those five essentials, which will be the follow up podcast episodes yet to come. 00:18:13:22 - 00:18:15:04 Speaker 2 So, Chris, takeaway. 00:18:15:04 - 00:18:41:16 Speaker 1 Well, I think the key is the role of manager and manager can be a supervisor. It can be a manager, it can be a CEO. It's a very important role. And when you accept that because it's just you accept the role at some point, even if you've been told you've accepted the position, you now become responsible for other people in that position. 00:18:41:16 - 00:19:09:07 Speaker 1 So what you are actually taking on is responsibility for how other people are performing, how engaged they are and how well they are doing. So this is not a position to be taken lightly, and this is not something to do in addition to all of the other work. The work is managing and it matters. The research is is but it's an indisputable research. 00:19:09:11 - 00:19:30:06 Speaker 1 So developing your capacity as a manager, whether you are new to the role or you've been in the role for 30 years, as I mentioned, even in this podcast, there's multiple things I rethought. And I've been in leadership roles for over 25 years. Consistently developing your skills as a manager will not only benefit the people you're responsible for, but will benefit you. 00:19:30:08 - 00:19:31:10 Speaker 1 Yeah, that's what I would have said. 00:19:31:10 - 00:20:03:02 Speaker 2 Thank you very much. Yeah. Managers matter. They have impact. They create an experience of work that can be a very positive impact on people's day to day performance, wellbeing and engagement. So Chris, you mentioned that there's five elements pillars, ideas, concepts that are built on through the book. Dan, can you outline for our listeners, what are those five areas that we're going to be exploring as we move forward in our series? 00:20:03:04 - 00:20:27:11 Speaker 3 Yeah, so we call it the Essential five or the E5 for short. And really it's just how do we help managers get crystal clear on like, what did I just say yes to? What am I getting hired for? And what areas can I focus on to improve them? And so we created this framework, really to address the problem that although managers are so influential and important in organizations, they are wildly under supported. 00:20:27:12 - 00:20:45:21 Speaker 3 Right. So anywhere from 56 to 85% of managers never get any sort of formal training. Coaching or development. It's just here's your title, here's your job. Good luck. Figure it out. Hope you do. Well, and of course, a lot of them are disengaged and burning out as a result of that. Right? So they're not getting the support they need. 00:20:46:01 - 00:21:02:09 Speaker 3 So we want to give them that support. So the essential five are if you're a manager and even as you listen to this, you know, do a little self-assessment in your head. Which of these areas, do I need to focus on the most? Maybe number one is actually just start with you. All right. So that's who you are as a person. 00:21:02:09 - 00:21:18:06 Speaker 3 It's not just what you do. It's it's your it's your being. It's not your doing right. And so what kind of manager do you want to be. Right. What what do you think your purpose is. How do you want to carry that out? What are the values and principles that guide you? How do you want to be experienced by those on your team? 00:21:18:06 - 00:21:37:04 Speaker 3 Really getting clear on that and making sure that, the impact you're having matches your intention. And so we start with you. And so we're going to talk all about that, as far as how you show up, that's your emotions. It's your words, it's your communications. All of those things, too is kind of we're moving out beyond you to invest in people, right? 00:21:37:04 - 00:21:56:14 Speaker 3 Management at its core is a relational, is a is a relational role, right? You're building relationships. You're investing in other people. And that's the the part that most managers say is the hardest. Right? What's the what's the most difficult part of your job? It's the people staff. Well, we're putting it square in the framework and saying this is part of the job and a critical part. 00:21:56:14 - 00:22:16:01 Speaker 3 Right? So number two is invest in people. How do you build relationships based on trust and help others grow? Third, zooming out a little bit further is build the team. Right. So it's you it's your one on one connections with other people. But actually you've got you've probably got a group of people that you're trying to align around a common purpose. 00:22:16:02 - 00:22:41:10 Speaker 3 And so how do we create the conditions for this group of people, to not just be a group, but to really be a team that collaborates, coordinates, shares knowledge, makes decisions together. You're talking about workflows and processes, but also creating the relational, environment for them. And so there's, there's so many elements to how do you actually help a team develop and grow up for, is the piece that, you know, you talked about performance? 00:22:41:10 - 00:23:04:11 Speaker 3 Chris. We talk we, we referred to as advance the work. Right. As a manager, your job is to help all of this create create the conditions for everyone to do their best work. Right. We often use the phrase, your job isn't to manage performance, it's to enable performance. Right. So advance the work really is. How do we create the conditions for people to succeed in their roles? 00:23:04:16 - 00:23:28:12 Speaker 3 And five I love this because it's it's left out of so many, so many conversations is strength in the organization. As a manager, you're not hired to just build a great team. You're hired to help build a great organization. Right? You are not just leading that function. You are now responsible for collaborating across functions, across the organization, making sure silos don't get build sharing information. 00:23:28:12 - 00:23:51:05 Speaker 3 So really kind of seeing yourself as part of the the broader leadership team of the organization. And so those five together, we really do think that's it's fairly comprehensive. There's the you can go so deep in each of those five. Chances are there's some pieces in each of them that, you know, if you're listening as a manager, you're doing some of them well, and as we go through it, there's going to be some where it's like, oh, I'm not. 00:23:51:09 - 00:24:11:03 Speaker 3 It's really hard for me to focus on that. I prioritize that. And so hopefully we can hopefully we can encourage you. I think my, my goal in this book is not just to tell managers, here's what you're not doing. Well, I hope that you see yourself in the book and say, oh, that's great. I feel validated because I thought that was important, and you just kind of confirmed it for me. 00:24:11:05 - 00:24:13:13 Speaker 3 And I should pay a little more attention to this. 00:24:13:18 - 00:24:34:07 Speaker 1 Yeah. Right on. I agree, it's because everyone that's listening to this has strengths. And one of those five areas that we're talking about, so it's not we've never met a manager that is nothing but deficit in this area. Some demonstrate strengths maybe in 1 in 3. But what we're looking for is balance. All of us can improve in one way or another. 00:24:34:09 - 00:24:51:01 Speaker 2 Thank you very much, Dan and Chris. And, thank you listeners for joining us. If this is piqued your interest, please join us for the next episode, which we will explore looking at. Start with me as the first essential. 00:24:51:03 - 00:24:54:13 Speaker 1 Thank you for joining us on this podcast series. 00:24:54:14 - 00:25:01:23 Speaker 1 If you are looking for additional support and resources, please reach out to us, check out our website achieve center.com.