Eric: [00:00:00] Welcome to episode 66 of the Achieve Workplace Culture Podcast, where we help you find actionable ways to strengthen your workplace culture. Today we're gonna think about what we want. Instead of what we don't want, we're gonna ask the question or, and then make the case that you need to be focusing more on the behaviors that you like than the ones you don't like. And so with that up, we'll just say, uh, welcome to Wendy Lowen, Chris Downey, and to me Eric Stutzman, and I'm gonna ask you each, how are you doing? Chris: I'm doing great. I'm doing job. Wonderful. Eric: Yeah. Chris: Good. Wendy: I'm thinking of a story as you are doing the opening here. Okay. So I'm doing well. My mind is starting to spark. Eric: Nice. Nice. Well, do you wanna start us off with a story, Wendy? Yeah. I'm curious, why don't we just go, yeah, I'm curious. Yeah. What's your story? Wendy: Well, I was thinking of that parable about the grandparent whose grandchild comes to them and they're sitting and having [00:01:00] a conversation and the grandparent is dispelling, you know, wisdom life. Mm. Experiences. And the story of that, the grandparent tells the grandchild around every person has two wolves that live inside of them. Uh, they're battling against each other. One is a good wolf, one is a bad wolf. The good wolf is like kind, generous, loving. Uh, the bad wolf is malicious, greedy, hurtful. And the grandchild says, well, which one wins? Mm-hmm. And the grandparent says, the one you feed. Yeah. Like, ah, that links to, you know, focusing on, you know, what is, what is that other saying where, where attention goes, energy flows, or something along those lines. Eric: Nice. I think we could just start the podcast, right? We're, we're done. No, that's right. So, uh, can you think of a specific time when somebody gave you positive feedback and how that may have influenced you? I can start with a story while you're thinking about that Chris: before. Yeah. Yep. Eric: So I remember a time a few years ago when I [00:02:00] had to write a tricky email and I sent it and my boss was aware of it, and my boss wrote back saying, I really love how you wrote that email, and gave some specific feedback on how I wrote the email. Guess what I did next? I went back to my email and I reread my email, right? Well, what did I do? How did I say that? Right? What was the thing? And it, and it. It, it, it reinforced the way I had done that thing. Yes. By somebody noticing it specifically. Oh, yeah. Chris: And maybe you shone a light on something you didn't even realize. Eric: I hadn't really thought about it. No. Chris: Yeah. Eric: I just was like, oh, I gotta write this email. Sent it out. Chris: Yeah. Eric: But then the light shining on, it was like, oh, I did do a good job there. Yes. What did I do? Chris: I, I had a, a similar situation where A-A-C-E-O of mine had come into my office and identified something about how I operate. That admittedly shifted my trajectory of my career. Eric: Wow. Chris: Like it, it really came from, he pointed out kind of some, he [00:03:00] basically asked me the question why I thought I was successful. Eric: Yeah. Chris: And I gave answers and he was like, no. And he went, you're successful 'cause of this. And he kind of, and he highlighted some strengths I didn't realize that I had. And I was like, I didn't know it at the time, but he was right. And it set me on a whole career. Wow. But he, he, he shed light on a, a strength that. It was just under, under the surface. I didn't even know it was there. Yeah. Wendy: Yeah. Eric: Cool. Wendy: Well, the story that came to mind for me is, uh, a client, Eric, that you years ago worked with very, very closely and then passed off to me. And on our first meeting with this client, uh, they verbalized to me, oh, like, you know, sorry that Eric's not gonna be here. Have a really good relationship with Eric and. Several months after we had, I had established a working relationship with this individual. They commented that, you know, it's really great to work with you. I was apprehensive about the handoff from Eric to you, and I asked, [00:04:00] well, what specifically has made that handoff easier? And then they identified specific mm-hmm. Things and ways and. That we had interacted proposals that I'd put together, how we'd been transparent about where we were in the project. He said, that's the kind of working relationship that I want. And that's something that I have taken forward with me for other clients as well. Eric: Nice. So when you notice or when we Okay. Starting with the three of us. Sure. When somebody has noticed something that we're doing. Right. Yeah. And said, so it has reinforced the behavior Chris: a hundred percent. Eric: Yes. Sends you off on a career path. Chris: Mm-hmm. Eric: Yes. It change changed your career path. Yeah. Changed what you were thinking about. Mm-hmm. For me, it, oh, I think I can write emails. I mean, remind the simple story, but you know what I mean, like that it reinforces the behavior. And Wendy, you, you know, you're talking about how it really shifted your work, or it [00:05:00] just helped you focus in your work to get the specific feedback about what you were doing. Right. Yeah. Chris: Yeah. Well, so here, so here's the thing. The, the celebrate what we're gonna see more of, and as you mentioned, Wendy, the wolf, that we feed wins. And generally when someone is acknowledging something you do well Eric: mm-hmm. Chris: It's strengths based. Eric: Mm-hmm. Chris: And the reason this is so important is our strengths being recognized and utilized. Yes. It's one of our most powerful sources of motivation. Eric: Yes. Chris: Right. It's not the most, but it's, it's up there. Eric: Right. Chris: And there are strengths everywhere. And so when we think about what we wanna celebrate, it doesn't have to be Grant. Eric: Yes. Chris: It could be the energy someone brings into the room in a meeting. Eric: Yes. Chris: It could be. Uh, Eric, you, you had celebrated once with me about just giving you feedback. Actually yes. In a moment. I really appreciate this. Eric: Yes. If Chris: you're giving permission to do more. So it's two things. You're reinforcing what you wanna see more of. Eric: Yes. Chris: And [00:06:00] you're motivating the other individual. No one ever. Has said, oh, I don't want to hear about what I do. Well, Eric: yeah. Chris: Right. If it's genuine. Eric: Yeah. Yeah. Chris: Right. But yet we let those things pass us by often. Eric: Yes. Chris: These strengths that lead to something great. Eric: Right. Chris: And we don't say anything about it. Right, right, Eric: right. Chris: Including it could be someone walks by your office every morning and says, Hey, good morning. Eric: Yeah. Chris: You really appreciate that. Right? Eric: Yeah. Chris: Don't say anything about it. Then one day it stops. Eric: Yeah. Chris: Hmm. It only stopped because they're parking on the other side of the building now. Right. But if they knew you actually appreciated that connection, they would still find a way to go and do it. So sometimes we make assumptions about people's behavior. If we don't call that out, Eric: uhhuh, Chris: we, we, something might shift and it might not be there anymore. Outro: Yeah. Chris: And an analogy a friend of mine uses about strengths is, well, this is a data analogy now, but it's like spare change, uhhuh. It's everywhere. If you spent your day looking for it, [00:07:00] Wendy: oh yeah, Chris: you're able five bucks. But if you're not looking for it. You don't see it. Yeah. Wendy: Years ago my son bought a big Lego set based on the change he'd found in his dad's pocket. Chris: Yeah. In Wendy: laundry. Yeah. It's very true and I think we often, we tend to stop and pause and celebrate sometimes with the big events, right? Like we finished a long-term project when there are just so, there's so much spare change lying around like people who are persisting in the face of. Of barriers, people who are reliable, who show up on time, people who bring good energy, people who do things creatively. When people do things, they focus on the details, they follow the letter of the process. Like there's so many things that if we just like widen our gaze a little bit, look up, yes. Uh, will see things. Chris: Well. It's good for them and it's good for us. It's like, oh yeah, I'm motivated right now. Just off this conversation alone, because I was thinking about, we had a staff. Kind of rest and reconnects when we meet up, you know, [00:08:00] mid-afternoon. We do that just as an opportunity to facilitate some connection. There were so many strengths visible LA yesterday afternoon amongst the staff members that were, that were talking. Mm-hmm. I need to go walk around the office right after and recognize these things. Yes. 'cause these, these beautiful strengths and they're all little subtle things. They Eric: are. Chris: But I left that reconnect. Doing like, feeling great, jazz Wendy: energized, Chris: right? Wendy: Yeah. Chris: And so it, it's reciprocal too, right? Yeah. So we, we want to acknowledge these things. We wanna see more of it. It makes them feel good. Eric: Yeah. Chris: And it actually shifts the, the lens. We start looking through a lens of strength. We start seeing 'em everywhere. If we look through a lens of deficit. Eric: We'll see those Chris: two. Well, that's what we see. So what the, what's the wolf of Feed? Wendy: Yes. Chris: I know which one I want to feed. Wendy: Yeah, absolutely. And, and, and I think it's, and at the same time, we know that we have to give feedback, which is sometimes can be framed as, you know, call it negative feedback, call it, you know, critical feedback, constructive feedback. And that's actually very [00:09:00] helpful for especially people who are advancing in a skill and who need direct instruction. Yep. But the reality is that as human beings, we are very attenuated to negative. Eric: We are Wendy: feedback. And so when in a leadership role in creating a culture where we can offer criticism, we have to feed the good wolf because sometimes we do have to give negative feedback. And I'm thinking of a study that was done years ago by Kahneman, right? Was looking at, you know, you frame things, if you say. Here's a medical procedure. Oh yeah. And you know it's impacting 600 people. Mm-hmm. If you say it's, you know, focusing on 200 people will die, or 400 people will be saved. If you say the 400 people will be saved. Yeah. More people will choose. I think it's like over 60% of people chose the positive frame as opposed to the negative. Mm-hmm. I mean, politicians also do this all the time. Yeah. Chris: You know, our minds, once that negative is in [00:10:00] there, we get stuck in it. Yes. And it's very, very hard if, if, if possible, to pull ourselves out of it. Wendy: Yeah. Chris: And as you're saying, the con the, the constructive, of course that has to happen sometimes and when you approach it from a strength space perspective. Right. So we might be building, giving feedback on something that's a, a challenge. But you, you, and this is not about sandwiching. I wanna be clear about this. This is saying we acknowledge, you know, maybe there's a, there's a a skill that we need to focus on. We need to develop, you know, some behavior change we need to see. Eric: Mm-hmm. Chris: I recognize that's a challenge, but I've seen you overcome multiple challenges before. Mm-hmm. I know you have the ability to do that. Eric: Mm-hmm. Chris: Very different than mm-hmm. You're not doing this. Yes. Yes. So if we can root our constructive feedback. From a start, from a strengths based perspective, changes everything. Wendy: Yeah. Yeah, Chris: yeah. Wendy: And so Chris, you're, you're talking about the, the sandwich with the s in the middle. Chris: Yes, yes. The not so tasty middle. Wendy: Yes. Chris: Yeah. Wendy: And I mean, anyway, that was taught years ago, right? The, the Eric: white, white bread, hard thing in the middle. Yeah. White Wendy: bread. Chris: Yes. Eric: Yeah. Chris: [00:11:00] Yeah. You just, it just, it's gross all around. Yeah. Yes. You actually lose the opportunity to celebrate those things, and it's just, any way you call it, it's still a, an S sandwich. Yeah. And that's not tasty, Eric: so. Okay. Let's talk about specificity now. Yeah, Chris: sure. Wendy: Yes. Eric: Sometimes people see something that's going well and they say, good job. Is that enough? Chris: No. Wendy: No. Chris: Yeah. Be specific. Go ahead, Wendy. Wendy: No, I think it's not definitely because, well, what about it was good, right? You said good job to me, Wendy, on that presentation. Mm-hmm. I would, I might have my own filters in terms of what I was really focusing on. You might have noticed something completely different. And we need to know specifically what are the things. 'cause what you notice and give voice to is gonna be repeated, Eric: right? Wendy: And so if you give specificity to what I did well oh, you, you paid attention to the details. It was clear. It was well organized. Then that's what I'm gonna pay attention to. Just like you [00:12:00] said, I went back and read that email. Yeah. 'cause I wanna do that again. The client gave me feedback on very specific things. I wanna do that again. Eric: Yeah, Chris: yeah. Ab absolutely. Eric: And Chris, you got feedback from a ceo. Yes. And you thought you were doing, he asked you what you thought you were doing. Well you have, just to Wendy's point, you were a totally different set of assumptions. He said, well actually is this, Chris: yeah. Eric: And that was impactful for Chris: you? It was very, it was very specific. Yeah. It had nothing to do with a long list of things. And I, I would say the more specific, the better. And nothing's too small to celebrate or to recognize and I, not just a work Eric: Yeah. Chris: Do it in the world. Eric: Yeah. Chris: Like just out even to strangers. No one is gonna say Shut up. If you say, Hey, I really like what, whatever it is. Outro: Yes. Chris: Right. Like, just what that puts out there. It's good for them. It's good for us. It it, yeah. When you spot it, say it. And this is, we, we often talk about don't let your [00:13:00] discomfort be their discomfort. Even with a total stranger Uhhuh. Yes. They're doing something that's just lighting things up. Say, you know what I really appreciate. Eric: Yes, Chris: that I had, I had gone for lunch with, I was on a years ago when I was working more independently. I was speaking, uh, through the Manitoba Teacher Society on kind of a bit of a tour, another speaker, and I never had a chance to, we're always speaking on two different stages at the same time. So we said, Hey, let's go for lunch. And we had never really got to know each other. And we sat down and I shared. Just said, shared a brief story and he, he, we, and I said, now tell me about you. And he goes, no. Can I just say, um, he goes, you have a real vulnerability when you speak. It makes you really interest. You're really easy to listen to. Thanks for that. Nice. Wendy: Mm-hmm. Chris: And then he moves on and I was like, whoa, Eric: whoa. Wendy: Yeah. Chris: Right. I'm still feeling it now. Yeah. That was like eight years ago. Eric: Yeah. Chris: Right. But he, he took the moment to do that. Eric: Yeah. Chris: And how many moments are out there? Eric: Yeah. Chris: Right. And they're lost. When they're gone. They're gone. Eric: Yeah. Chris: Yeah. Be specific though. Be very specific. Very Eric: specific. Chris: Yeah. Okay. You could, you, you really can't screw it up.[00:14:00] Eric: Yeah, that's right. Chris: It's low risk, Eric: but good job might feel nice in the moment, but it doesn't tell me what to repeat. Yeah, yeah. It just doesn't, yes, no. Wendy: Well, and, and it tends to spiral off into other areas as well. So if you affirm someone in one area, let's say that's attention to detail, they're gonna take that with them, not just for that particular task, but it's gonna go forward with them to. Other projects they're working on, other things, tasks that they're involved in. Chris: Oh, yeah. Wendy: I, I gave blood the other day and I, I'll say I'm a very apprehensive, anxious blood giver, and as the person was tying on the ELAs, I talk a lot when I'm, you know, yeah, I was apprehensive and I just said, oh, thank you for tying that on so carefully. I'm a little bit apprehensive of giving blood. And she said, oh. Thank you for that. I've heard so many negative comments today. She verbalized that. Mm-hmm. She said, I'm gonna be extra careful when I put the needle in. So it ended up, yes. Ended up working in my favor in that instance. Chris: Nice. Wendy: But it was [00:15:00] like, you pay attention to the things. You want people to pay attention to themselves. Chris: Yeah. Eric: Nice, nice. So as you, as we move to wrapping up the show today, if you were to give one. A piece of advice to our listeners as they're thinking about, uh, feedback or celebrating what they want more of. Is there just an a, a wrap up thought from each of you? Chris: I, I would say when you spot it, like call it out, whatever that, whatever that strength is, that thing. Yeah. Be specific. Spot it and say something. Wendy: Yeah. Eric: Nice. Wendy: I was gonna say the same thing, like challenge yourself if you're not at work right now, when you go to work within the first three hours to notice something and then to affirm and validate the behavior that you saw. And we don't have to be so careful about the words, you know, sometimes it's like, oh, am I gonna say this? Exactly right. People are gonna [00:16:00] appreciate, uh, hearing Eric: mm-hmm. Wendy: That their behavior, their work is noticed. Eric: Mm-hmm. Yep. And, uh, one of the things that I've learned over time is that when you're giving specific positive feedback, it's helpful to say, I noticed you do this, and here's the impact I saw on others. And that really reinforces that that positive behavior agreed. So if you're one of our listeners out there and you're thinking about you're week ahead and what you wanna do, start paying attention to what's going right and name it in that moment. Don't worry too much about the words. Focus on letting the person know what they're doing. Right. And with that, we're gonna end this episode of the Achieve Workplace Culture Podcast. We hope to see you next time, Outro: looking for free resources, training, and consulting in the areas of leadership and workplace culture. Be sure to check out achieve center.com. That's achieve CEN.