Eric: [00:00:00] Welcome to episode 64 of the Achieve Workplace Culture Podcast, where we help you find actionable ways to strengthen your workplace culture. Today on our show, we're gonna think about the difference between clarity and niceness, and we're gonna see if we can make the case that nice isn't always the thing you're trying to go for. Uh, we'll see what we can do with that. To begin with, I wanna welcome my co-host, Wendy Lowen. Chris Downey. I'm Eric St. Stutsman, and I'm gonna start by asking you as a question. Chris: Okay. Eric: Are you a nice person? Chris: I try to be, yes. Eric: What about you, Wendy? Wendy: Yeah, I aspire to be Eric: Okay. Wendy: Yeah. Eric: And I wonder, so let me push that a little further. Yes. And, and I, I say, I try be very set. Wendy: I know. Chris: Okay, Eric: go ahead. I try to be nice too, Uhhuh, but how about this? Yes. Is nice. The thing that we should be trying to be no. In our relationships or is there something else [00:01:00] that you wish you were more of than nice? Chris: Kind, Eric: kind, Chris: kind is the word that comes to mind for me. Eric: Yeah. What about you, Andy? Wendy: Yeah. In a leadership role, I do wanna, kindness really matters a lot to me. I, I wanna be kind, I wanna work with people who are kind. Uh, but I also wanna be someone who's very transparent and clear. Yeah. Um, and so it's, it's, it's both of those put together. Yeah. And I mean, and I mean, it's a classic Brene Brown quote, right? I think it's like clear is kind, Chris: is kind. Yeah. That's, that's where I was going with that, that I think I, I recognize that I probably am an, a nice person, my hope to be, but I realize sometimes that has gotten in the way where I need to lean in on kindness a little bit more. And sometimes that means. Maybe having a conversation that's a little uncomfortable. Wendy: Yeah. Eric: Interesting. Okay. So, you know, I think there's a lot of people out there who aim to be a nice person. Right. I know. I know. I do like, I'm like, I don't like to rock the boat. But yeah. Let's think about the workplace now for a little bit. I mean, we can talk about home life as maybe we wanna be kind at home too, but [00:02:00] why do we choose the word kind rather than nice? And then let's move from there to what you were talking about, Wendy, which is. Clarity or clear is kind. But what is the difference between kindness and niceness? Let's start there. Wendy: Well, I, the first thing that jumps to mind is the perspective for myself as a woman, and what I hear from other women in leadership roles is that there is an expectation that you are nice. Mm-hmm. And so what that means is you become people pleasing. You want the people around you to like you and you sometimes. You know, uh, someone made the comment to me the other day, and it's just really stuck with me. You light yourself on fire to keep other people warm. Like you're willing to sacrifice so that you appease and are seen as a nice person by those, You lead. Eric: Interesting. Chris: It's very interesting, Wendy. Yeah, and I, think about that. The concept of being nice is [00:03:00] good. But I think that what I was even hearing in that, like you said, you set yourself on fire right to warm others, is you're not really paying attention to actually what you need, which in turn isn't giving people what they ultimately need either. and that. That's not nice. Wendy: Yeah. That's not nice. And, it's, niceness or, yes, we wanna be nice people, but that's the output. It shouldn't be our primary motivator because. That typically comes out of a place of insecurity as opposed to confidence. Chris: Yeah. We're con, well you mentioned, you know, wanting to be liked and when that's the driver behind maybe how we engage in a conversation, then we're, then we're a bit compromised because we might not be saying the things that need to be said. Where I think flipping this into for being kind or actually being kind, oh, maybe this is the way you said that really framed, [00:04:00] made it clear for me. Being nice is actually about me wanting that for somebody else. Being kind is about the other individual. Eric: Yeah. Yes. Chris: I might at times be uncomfortable. Eric: Yes. Chris: But if I'm really gonna be kind, I need to do this, have this conversation. So I think that's the way I'm seeing it. Thanks to your, your definition there, Wendy. Nice. Is more about us kind is more about them. I dunno, how does that land? Wendy: Yeah. That lands really well. Yeah, it's actually flipping the script a little bit if you really do care. Chris: Mm-hmm. Wendy: And you wanna be kind to the people that you're leading. Sometimes the things we say might not be deemed to be nice. Eric: Right. Wendy: But they are kind, they're helpful. Chris: Yeah. Eric: We're, we're trying to help people in the, in a workplace context. Right. And when we think about the culture we want to create. Uh, nice is always just saying the thing that keeps people always comfortable. Chris: Yes. There we Eric: go. Nice. The kind is saying the things that help us move forward. Yes. Whether as individuals or as teams or an organization. So [00:05:00] to me, that's one of the big differences. This is just to make you happy versus this is to help us perform and sometimes to perform, we need to know that what we're doing isn't working for other people, and I need somebody to say, Eric. You know when you speak like that or you know, do that thing, it hurts other people and I'd like to help you think about other ways to do that. That might feel scary for me if somebody came to say that to me. And it doesn't necessarily feel like niceness because I'm, because you're nice guy. Uncom. Chris: You're a nice guy. Eric: You're Chris: comfortable with it. Sure. Eric: Yeah. Yeah. But it is kind in the long run. Sure. Because it helps me perform in a, in a more effective way. Chris: So Wendy: I was just thinking nicely said, but I should choose a different description. Well, no, Chris: but there, there's balance. There's, I think that's it. I mean, the kind thing is to have the conversation. You can do it in, in a nice way, right? Yes. Um, you know, we talk about the importance of clarity here. I think one of the things I'll share, I ask, we do a lot of work in the kinda the performance space. Eric: Yes. Chris: Um, and one, a question I will ask large groups and small groups. Well, I often say, um, [00:06:00] if you weren't performing well or you weren't meeting the expectations that you're, you're leader had of you or the organization had of you Eric: mm-hmm. Chris: Would you want to know? Eric: Mm-hmm. Chris: No one has said no. Eric: Right? Chris: Everyone says yes. Right? Eric: Yes. Chris: But yet, often as leaders, we're hesitant to have a conversation when someone's not meeting our expectations. Yes. The kindest thing we can do is have the conversation, but it's in the right way. And I think that that's where the niceness comes in, Wendy: and I think it's very detrimental because if we see areas that people could improve or areas they should explore, the best thing for us to do in terms of their development and our team and the organization is to alert them to that. Chris: Yeah. Wendy: Like if they're engaging in a behavior that is not helpful and we see them moving in a particular direction, we should give voice to that. Mm-hmm. And that might feel uncomfortable, like you said, Eric, right? If somebody approaches us. But it's, [00:07:00] it's, well, short-term gain long, you know, or short-term pain, long-term gain. We're, we're taking the long game that we care about each other, that we're committed to each other, and that when we offer each other feedback. It actually is in our best interest. Chris: Mm-hmm. As I'm thinking about this, you asked a question at the beginning. I'll ask you a question. Have you ever been maybe driving somewhere or walking somewhere and you don't really know where you're going, or if you have a destination you actually don't know how to get there Wendy: often? Chris: Mm-hmm. Right. At first it's okay. And then it's very uncomfortable, isn't it? Yeah. Like, 'cause you're like, oh, well I don't, I. I'm, I'm lost. I need a marker. I'm lost. I'm lost. I need something to bring you back. And I think about, you know, sometimes when we wanna be nice, we're sending someone out in a certain direction and we're like, you got this. Eric: Yeah. You got this Chris: right. We can Eric: do this. Chris: Yeah. You got it. And then we just send them out. Eric: Yeah. Chris: And all of a sudden they're like, what street? What direction? And it [00:08:00] isn't long before, like, think about it, at first it's kind of funny. Eric: Yeah. Chris: And then it gets really unsettling. Yes. Depending on where you are. Yes. Chris: And I think a kind thing to do would be here's where we need to go. Eric: Yeah. Chris: Do, do you know where, how to get there? Or even better yet say, here's yeah. Where we need, where we need to go get, so it is that, that idea, that clarity is so important. And I think that's what we're talking about. You mentioned at the beginning here, it's, it's the kind of thing to do. Yeah. Even, even the stuff that's a little prickly Wendy: and using your example. People then spend way more time getting to where they need to be. Sure. They have workarounds, they try and hide when they don't understand. Mm-hmm. Whereas if we see even small things Yeah. We can help them out. Yeah. And lead them, you know, give them a little bit of direction. Why would we not? Chris: Yeah. Wendy: Probably because we're unsettled ourselves or feeling insecure ourselves about having the skills to have [00:09:00] those conversations. Eric: Yeah. Yeah. And, and thinking about that more, going back to what you said Chris, about when you ask an audience if they would want to know if their performance wasn't up to snuff, right. Basically. Chris: Yep. Eric: And everybody says Yes, I would want to know. And I've had that experience too. Sure. I've asked groups of people the same. Same question Sure. Or similar questions. But then you have to talk about the how. Chris: Right? Eric: And the how, I think is where, as you were just saying, Wendy, that we get a little entangled in our own fear about how to do that. Yeah. And so the. So learning how to be kind, how to deliver clear feedback is really important because otherwise we get stuck in niceness. Or keeping the peace. And keeping the peace actually isn't really good for us in the long run. It's just like that person who went out and doesn't really know where they're gonna go. Eventually they get lost because nobody is providing the direction or helping us figure out what to do. So how, if you were to say what, how can you be clear in a way that is also. Kind. Right. What's the [00:10:00] difference between unkind clarity and kind clarity? Outro: Yeah. Wendy: Well, I mean, first of all, you know how we say things really matters. Our intent matters. Sure. Our belief in other people we're, you know, so assessing ourself in terms of why we're giving the feedback. But I think to keep it very focused on behavior and impact and what are we working towards and how do we get there. Eric: Right. Chris: It it, you're spot on. What? It has to be behavior focused. Yeah. 'cause a behavior, an action or inaction is, is visible. Eric: Mm-hmm. Chris: Right. That's not, not really debatable. That's not arguable. You, you aren't moving past the start line. Okay. Eric: Yeah. Chris: Why is a different story? And that's where we want to go. And often when we jump into feedback, we spend so much time thinking about it. We think we know why they haven't start. Left the start I left the finish the start line, pardon me, is where I'm going with this. And we jump in with our own assumptions and our own narratives. Wendy: Yeah. Chris: And that's when it starts to get off. If we just start with [00:11:00] the behavior, let's, let's just talk about it. And once we understand it, then we can do something about it. Right. And part of it is also spotting it. I have to just share a story. This has to, we always kinda pump up our neighborhood where our office is here. Eric: Mm-hmm. Chris: I was out in my kind of early days at the office. One of our, one of our, uh, colleagues from Toronto was in town and we went out for lunch and we were just, I thought, oh, there's a great restaurant right across the street. And we went out and we got there realized, oh, that restaurant's no longer open. And we're standing there looking confused. Eric: Mm-hmm. Chris: And one of the local folks here that we see just often in the neighborhood saw this confusion. Eric: Mm-hmm. Chris: And just said like, can I help you with something? Yeah. Are, are you looking for someplace? And then we just were like, yeah, you know, we're looking for a place for lunch. And then he just listed off five places that we could go. Eric: Okay. Chris: But the, the, what was cool was a nice person might be like, I don't wanna interrupt. Eric: Right. Chris: That individual spotted something that seemed [00:12:00] off. He checked it out. He didn't make it an assumption. Once we clarified that, he gave us five things, and I will tell you, this would be a person that he would often just kind of walk by, not consider. They spotted it, asked about it. Nice. Once they got clarity, then they gave us clarity, if that makes sense. Nice. Nice. That was, that was kindness. Eric: Yeah. Chris: Right. Eric: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's really cool. Chris: And again, a props to our neighborhood here. Yeah. Wendy: Okay. I am having a very terrible thought. Chris: Okay, go for it. Let's, Wendy: the next time my husband and I are driving and we're lost, I'm gonna say we need to pull over. There are lots of kind, clear people out there. We could ask for directions. Chris: Oh and yes. Is that the kindest thing to say in that moment though? Yeah, that is a good, good. That is a great one. That's a great one. Eric: Okay. So. So we're leaders in this workplace, right? Wherever we are, and we're wanting to move beyond niceness to something more impactful. Let's list like three things that [00:13:00] leaders should be doing to make sure that their workplace culture moves toward kindness, which enables performance and away from simple niceness. what advice would you have for our listeners? Wendy: Pay attention. Be looking, be alert when you notice things that need either affirmation or correction. Be confident in knowing that giving voice to that is actually the best thing that you can do for yourself, for the person, for the team, and for the organization. And if you need the skills and the practice, find somebody to sit down and talk through it, but have that conversation. Chris: I'm with you, Wendy. have the conversation. 'cause it needs to be, had not having it is probably unkind. Eric: That'd be nice. But it's unkind. Chris: You're right. And I would say on the note of, niceness is have the conversation and don't let your discomfort be their discomfort. So you, mentioned Eric, you might be [00:14:00] uncomfortable sometimes bringing up certain things. Fair enough. You're, you have your own internal struggles with that and that's, fine. That doesn't mean. It's uncomfortable for them. As we remember. Everyone said, I want to know. So if we pay attention, even if we're uncomfortable, we lean in and have the conversation, but we focus it on behaviors, not judging the behavior. Making sure we understand the behavior and then supporting them through that behavior change. Eric: let's start like to, build on what you're saying, Chris, let's start with the assumption that people want to know, and then let's approach them with a conversation rather than a diatribe. Outro: Ooh, Eric: nice. Yeah, let's start them with a conversation. A conversation is two-way. Outro: Yep. Eric: And it means asking questions. It means noticing, asking for interpretation, letting them know that you think that they might want to hear your perspective on what you're seeing as well. And share that perspective with them and then make the next steps. Chris: Yeah, and And I think just building on that is, yeah, give them the benefit of the doubt. Eric: Yes. [00:15:00] Chris: Uh, you mentioned they want to know. Eric: Mm-hmm. Chris: And I'll add one more. They want to do good work. Eric: Yeah. Chris: Another question I've asked many people, how many people here show up to do subpar work? Eric: Yeah. Chris: Barring a few people joking around, no one said I do. Yeah, right. Exactly. So they're there to do good work. They might not be meeting your standards. They do wanna know, engage, have the conversation. Yeah, for sure. Eric: Yeah, Chris: that's kind. Eric: So with that, let's wrap up this episode of the Achieve Workplace Culture. Podcast, and I'm gonna ask you a question listener, to go away and think about what are the, what's the feedback or the, uh, observations that you've been sitting on that might be kinder to share than to simply sit on, is there someone that you could talk to this week that would move you toward kindness and move your workplace toward performance? We'll see you next time. Outro: Looking for free resources, training and consulting in the areas of leadership and workplace culture. Be sure to check [00:16:00] out.