eric: [00:00:00] Welcome to episode 63 of the Achieve Workplace Culture Podcast, where we help you find actionable ways to strengthen your workplace culture. Today we're gonna see if we can make the case that fair is not necessarily equal, and so we're gonna see what that means. In fact, we're gonna ask the question, do we need to treat people differently rather than the same? I am joined by my two co-hosts, Wendy Lowen and Chris Downey. I'm Eric Stutzman and I'm gonna ask you first to say, how you doing? How's everybody doing today? chris: Uh, I'm doing, I'm doing great. I was just, we're just had a, a conversation off air about it's the Olympic time. Yeah. And I just love watching Best on best sports. So, uh, it's been all around this week and, uh, that, uh, it's been fun, fun to watch. It's kind of amazing to watch, eric: isn't it? Yeah. wendy: I am doing really well. I'm looking forward to a weekend adventure away with friends and my husband. Oh, cool. Uh, we're heading [00:01:00] out to some snowy adventures, so yeah, I'm feeling really energized and looking forward to the conversation. eric: Nice. And hi. Yeah, just finished a 72 hour fast and I am feeling energetic. wendy: You look like it. eric: Happy. chris: Yeah, eric: it's kind of amazing. It was harder than. In some ways harder than I thought. In some ways easier than I thought it would be, but I feel sort of proud of myself for having done it. chris: You should be. Yeah. Yeah. That's amazing. I've been, it's been on my mind a lot as I've been having some delicious meals this week. Thinking about how you've been doing, eric: one of the harder things is sitting at a table with other people eating. Yeah, like yesterday I had a lunch out with some, you know, colleagues and. They were eating delicious looking food and I was drinking soda water. chris: And you were near, near the end of that eric: point. I was near the end. I was near the end. Yeah. wendy: Yeah. And eating is such a communal experience, and when you're with other people, there's the food, but there's also this sharing of the experience together. Well, eric: totally. Yeah. wendy: Good for you, Eric. chris: It's interesting though, as I'm seeing that we're talking about fair fairness today. Yeah. And how someone [00:02:00] observing. Watching you at that meeting. It might not have Seemed fair. eric: Might not have seemed fair. chris: Yeah. eric: But it was the right thing for chris: me. It was the right thing for you. Yeah. Interesting. eric: That's right. chris: Okay. eric: One more thing about doing a 72 hour fast. This was my first, at the end of it, when you break the fast with some very simple food, I had some soft eggs and some sauteed spinach with a bit of olive oil and a bit of salt. Oh, nothing tasted so good. Ooh, ooh. It was so good. wendy: Deep appreciation. eric: I deep appreciate wendy: I'm, chris: I'm, I'm intrigued by this. I am intrigued. I have been thinking about it since you told us about this, so. eric: All right, well, maybe that's enough about that. Yeah. Let's dive into our topic. Today, uh, we want to think about the question of equality and what does equality mean and what's the relationship between equality and fairness. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I thought it might be interesting for us to start with the question, have you ever seen people treated equally, but it didn't actually produce a great result? wendy: I have a personal story that jumps to mind. Alright, let's here. Someone in my social circle [00:03:00] is very intent on giving their children very similar gifts over the holidays. Okay? And it is, uh, from my children's perspective, you know, they talk about it as it's a little bit of, it's humorous because the gifts sometimes don't land well. Uh, because what one person appreciates doesn't necessarily reflect. What the other people would appreciate. And also in, I mean, with gift giving. Sure. And I think it is true with leadership as well, we tend to give the gifts that we would like. So not, I've realized not everybody in my social circle would like a book and a journal and a pen. Mm-hmm. You know, but that's my sort of, that's what I love. So I tend to think that other people would appreciate that. chris: Mm-hmm. wendy: And so, yes, I have seen that. And I know that in terms of how I respond to other people, I wanna not just read it through my own lens of, oh, this is what I like, or this is fair. Right? It's like, no, that's not, [00:04:00] that's not how people wanna be treated. chris: Yeah. Huh. Yeah. Interesting. I, I know I, I've, I've certainly seen that and been part of that, um, kind of equal gift giving, which can lead to some wendy: misses. chris: Yeah. Some misses. Uh, but in the workplace, I, I'd say I've done it. I have early in my. Leadership, career, um, or journey. I, I kind of believed I'd treat everyone equal. eric: Mm-hmm. chris: And what I, and so the thought was everyone's going to get really the same amount of time, the same energy, the same version of Chris. And for some people that worked really well, and for others it didn't. And it took quite a while before I realized I was actually the, problem in that situation. And I was blaming the individuals that weren't necessarily doing what I needed them to do, where I realized I was It as a result of me treating them equally. eric: It's interesting because some people really like to have a lot of autonomy. [00:05:00] They just need to know what the goal is. And, if there's any markers along the way they should pay attention to. And other people really like to have a lot more clear direction about exactly what to do. And if you treat them equally and give them the same amount of direction, some people will be happy and some people will be unhappy. yeah. exactly. And I've made exactly the same mistake, Chris. Yeah. In the past. chris: Okay. So eric: it's not chris: just me. That's good. eric: No, no, no, no. Um, so you know, it, I think that we hear a lot though about equality being important, but I'm wondering if there's some, like, if you, as you think about your experiences, gift giving Yeah. Uh, providing supervision in the workplace, and you think about. Equality. What, what should we be shifting to if we're not thinking about equality? Uh, is there something that is important that we provide? wendy: Yeah, and and for me, as you're talking Eric, I'm mentally going one step back. I think it does depend on your workplace culture and if you are a workplace that values diversity, that wants [00:06:00] people to be able to give the best of themselves their needs, their wants, we're not. Equal in terms of our interests, our aptitudes, our skills. We're all contributing, but in different ways. So how we respond to that shouldn't be bland and flat. It should reflect, not equality, but I, think I know the word that for me jumps up. it's equity. Like, how do we do the best work together? That's, and, what do you need to do good work and how do I as a leader support that? chris: Yeah. eric: Yeah. what is, I actually don't really know the difference between equity and equality. What, does that mean to you, chris: it's an, it is an interesting one. We wrestle and I, fully agree with what you're getting at Wendy. They're, different things. they're very related though, and a thought for us to think about, but when we think about equality, it's [00:07:00] often thought about everyone starts from the same place, So let everyone kinda start from the same place and they will get where they get. But the reality is we know not everyone starts in the same place. So equity is about giving people what they need so they can have a fair start, eric: right? Right. chris: And when I think about a quality, it is important, but quality. Think about that as an output, eric: right? chris: Versus an input. And I think nice. Even just from society, we looked at things from a, from an in like an input perspective, everyone's equal. Well, we're not at the same starting point depending on what it's, whether it's at work or in life or whatever it might be. eric: Right, right. chris: Let's think about equality being the goal, the output and equity is the way to help Get things there. eric: So equality is the goal. Equity gets us there. chris: Yeah. that's a thought that eric: I have. chris: It doesn't have to be the one we all share. eric: let's, be tangible. What does that actually mean? so we've got two different people. Is it as [00:08:00] simple as I, I think I've heard that the, example of. like just even think about height. chris: Yes. eric: If you have a task that requires doing something high up and one person is six feet tall and the other person is five feet tall, The six foot tall person is gonna have an easier time than the five foot tall person. And so you need to provide the five foot tall person a stool, but the six foot person doesn't need that. chris: Right? wendy: Yeah. eric: Yeah. Is that kind of the idea? But maybe chris: in a really simple way. For sure. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. That's, exactly It, be a reasonable expectation to expect that five foot individual to complete the same amount of tasks that are up at that level. eric: Right. chris: Um, it just wouldn't. That's not fair, eric: right? chris: It you just say, well, we're both here's, here's a light bulb and here's the task. Yeah. You're equal. Well, it's, you're not eric: right. chris: Let's, let's, let's, let's, let's equalize things through, through equity and then, then we can perform. eric: [00:09:00] Okay. chris: But what's interesting though, as you're saying that, and this is, I think so conceptually, yes. I think that's the way. Okay. eric: This is sort of the basic foundation. chris: It is the basic foundation. However, there's also what we need to find the balance for. It's like sometimes that's just a great fit for that individual. wendy: Right. chris: That's okay. wendy: Right? chris: Yeah. Yes. I was once using that example, uh, working with a client, uh, whose CEO was, uh, you know, a fairly, uh, and, and she always acknowledged that the difference in height between her and I, and I used that very example about, you know, if we're, if we're hired for these two tasks and I'm up there doing this, someone said, yeah, but why are they changing light bulbs? And I'm like, that's an even better point. Because it is, we do wanna make sure that everyone that goes into it, there's, there's equity. eric: Yeah. chris: But it's also about seeing strengths in people as well. Okay. Yeah. And sense, like, you think about that, that the CEO I'm talking about. Yeah. She is brilliant. eric: Yeah. chris: Her talent should be put elsewhere, you know? Right. While I'm out changing those light bulbs maybe. So there is a balance. We need to figure that out. We wanna, wendy: yeah. eric: Hmm. [00:10:00] wendy: Yeah. I mean, I so, so concur with that. And that's actually the better question, right? It's like, do we have the right fit? And if we have the right fit, people have the aptitudes, they have the interest for a role. Yeah. Then we provide them with the tools, the resources, the training, the support. Yeah, the accountability that they need. Yeah. Because people are all starting at different places. chris: Yeah. eric: So how do you deal with it on your team? Let's say one person needs additional supports that another person doesn't need for whatever reason. Maybe they're doing some relatively similar things because they've been hired on the same team for relatively similar tasks. They have different strengths though, maybe approach their tasks slightly differently given their tasks. One person needs a set of supports that other person doesn't need, so person B who doesn't need those supports. C's, the supports being given to person A. Mm-hmm. And goes, well, that's not fair. chris: Right. eric: How do you deal with that? chris: Yeah, wendy: I think that's a great question and. I mean, I think as you're saying that you build a culture where people know that we [00:11:00] are responsive to each other, and as a team, the goal is performance. chris: Okay. wendy: So the supports that we're offering are about making the team stronger and actually being able to perform. chris: Yeah. wendy: And so there is an accountability built into that. It's not just about ongoing additional supports and supports with No. Cons, positive consequences at the end of that in terms of, you know, getting the task done or productivity. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It's that we're offering those so that together we do good work. chris: Yeah, I hear, I hear that. And something to add to that. When someone says, well, that's not fair. Why do they get to that? Often as leaders or even peers, our default is to defend why that person has that. eric: Mm-hmm. chris: And I would suggest if someone says, why do they have that? eric: Yes. chris: Ask them a question. So you're concerned that you're not getting something, can you tell me about [00:12:00] that? eric: Yes. chris: Let's take it away from the other individual. Right. And bring it back into the So 'cause odds are what they're wrestling with. Yes. Isn't actually the fact that. That person has a ladder, eric: right? chris: There's something else at play. eric: Yeah. That's really good Chris. Mm-hmm. chris: Right. So we wanna make sure we stay on their story and not necessarily make it about eric: the other individual. This is out the other person. Yeah. The question is what do you need to function well, sure. And maybe there's something missing for you too. So let's talk about that. chris: And odds are, after speaking up probably is something, probably eric: is something chris: Yeah, for sure. So I, I 100% agree with that. That's the goal is about performance, you know, as a collective. But also, and that too is if someone's calling. eric: Hmm. chris: This isn't, this isn't fair. Hmm. That is a, that, that is a, the moment someone's, that's a powerful word. Mm-hmm. Fair. Mm-hmm. wendy: It is. chris: And the moment someone says, this isn't fair, let's stop and go. Okay. Tell me about that. Mm-hmm. But let's stay on your story and not everybody else's story. eric: Yes, chris: yes. It's, it's, it's a natural human instinct to kind of do that. Right. Right. Why don't I have that eric: right. wendy: And we do wanna be fair of course. And equity allows us to be fair. We don't [00:13:00] wanna play favorites, which is maybe the fear or the perception from other people. Yeah. But it isn't about creating equality, that's the output. But how we get there might look very, very different person to person, team to team. chris: So, so important. Wendy, I think one of the things we need to call out here is, uh, the idea of equality is, is, is, is beautiful. And I'd love to say we just look at the world through an equal lens and we see everyone the same, but we don't. That's not how we work as human beings. We have bias. Right. And I don't wanna blame ourselves for that. So it's easy to say, I treat everyone the same. But you don't. We often see this, I was working with a police officer a number of years ago that was focusing on diversity, and he said one of the biggest things I'm struggling with. Is having a lot of these police officers that have particularly been in the force for quite a while say, no, I'm color blind. I don't see a difference. That's a risky thing to say. 'cause you do, you're human, And I think that the, reason this is so important is [00:14:00] we need to create an environment. Let's talk about the workplace where we have an ability to see those talents in everyone. requires us maybe to pay a little more attention with certain piece. I will just share with you candidly, myself, I advanced quickly in my career and I, at that time gave it all because of the hard work I was doing. I'm not saying that wasn't a factor, right? But there were so many doors that were open for me. And then once I started to realize this, I, I started to feel guilty that, oh, I didn't deserve the position that I, the positions I was in. And I processed through that. I said no. What happened for me was someone saw potential in me and put me into a position to elevate my, and I was successful. eric: Right? chris: It's not that I shouldn't have had that opportunity, but everyone should. So we need to create workplaces where people's natural talents become visible. Mm-hmm. chris: And then we can lean in on those. And that's not gonna [00:15:00] happen just from equal treatment. No. wendy: Right. chris: But everyone will feel like equal. Does that make sense? wendy: It does. Yeah. So you see the skill, you see the aptitude, and then you provide the resources to elevate chris: to, to bring it out. Yeah. eric: Hmm. chris: And that's the opportunity we have in the workplace. eric: Mm-hmm. wendy: That's kind of exciting. chris: I, I think so. wendy: Mm-hmm. chris: Because that, we know we're wrestling with that in society it would be, it'd be nice to suggest that doesn't exist, but if we can create workplaces where people can come in and be seen. You know, further best qualities, and those qualities can be leaned in on. eric: Mm-hmm. chris: Well, more productive workplaces. Uh, they're probably going, they're probably going home feeling a little bit better too. Right? wendy: Yeah. You know, and I think we know it intuitively outside of work. You know, the example of gifts or when you serve a meal, you ask people, do you want some extra salt? Do you need some pepper? Would you like extra cheese, gluten, or no cheese with that? Yeah. Yeah. You know, we, we know that about people outside of work. chris: Yeah. wendy: And we need to take those same ways of caring for people and elevating people. [00:16:00] To our workplaces as well. Yeah. chris: Yeah. So I think going back to even the name of this episode, you know, fair isn't always equal. I think that's an important thing. If we, if we get stuck in the belief that we're doing everything equally, we're, we're probably, we're most likely not, and we're actually at risk there. And in fact, if we're getting, if we get into that comfort zone, that ought to be a marker to say, maybe I need to. Expand what I'm seeing out there a little bit. wendy: Yeah. And then we end up with organizations that are highly policy because we want to ensure that we are treating everybody the same. Yeah. And so, I mean, I don't have children. You at home? I have children, but not at home. chris: Right. wendy: You know, both of you do. So there might be different accommodations that are needed for you to perform and to do well at work. Yes. I live an hour and a half outside of the city. You both live in the city, so there's accommodations that may need to be [00:17:00] made Well, which are made to allow us all to function well within our role. eric: Yes. chris: You know, and it's, it's great you're pointing that out, and that's something we've spoken about often here and not, again, not that we're flawless as a, as a culture here, but we, we've created a space where we can see those. Mm-hmm. Unique qualities. And then set up an environment to to, to accommodate for those. Yeah. Uh, and still perform. Going back to what you said at the, the end point. Yeah. What, and I think you, you mentioned that, that the policying, and I'm not saying policies aren't important, but like, much like we talked about before, when someone says That's not fair, let's have a conversation to make sure we understand that. eric: Mm-hmm. chris: Because if someone's so the way it plays out or has often plays out, if someone says, that's not fair. Oh, you're right, that's not fair. Maybe we should put a policy in place and make sure that that's the case. Or do we understand that unique need that's in that situation? Yes. eric: Yes. chris: And we can either meet that need eric: Yeah. chris: Or explain what the point and why we, why we can't. Yeah. And even that, it's good. So I think we just need to, we, this goes [00:18:00] back to if we really want to create a fair workplace, it's about creating a space where we're seen for and you know, appreciate for who we are. And there's some accommodation made to meet that, to the extent possible. Of course, that's always, they have yet in there. wendy: Yeah, and I think, I mean we've said this, but I think it bears saying again, is that I think a lot of times leaders assume equality leads to performance. Yes. But it doesn't. Yeah. It's the other, it's equity leads to good leads, perform performance. Yeah. eric: Awesome. Well, with that, we need to wrap up this episode. So for our listeners out there, if you're thinking about what does this mean for you specifically, start by seeing difference. Start by acknowledging that people come from different places. Understand that that means we should focus on their strengths and ask what they need in order to perform well in the workplace. Instead of shooting for equality, everybody gets the same tool. Ask which tools people need, and then [00:19:00] think about your output as this sense of equality or fairness that we're working in a workplace that's seen as fair. And if people are questioning fairness, ask them specifically what they need. And with that, we're gonna wrap up this episode of the Achieve Workplace Culture Podcast. We'd love for you to like and share this podcast with other people, and we'll see you next time. Outro: Looking for free resources, training, and consulting in the areas of leadership and workplace culture. Be sure to check out achieve center.com. That's achieve C-E-N-T-R e.com.