Wendy: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Achieve Workplace Culture Podcast, episode 62. I'm Wendy Lowen, sitting in for Eric Sch Chitman, our regular host, and today I am joined by Chris Downey, who is also a regular on this podcast, and we're gonna be doing something a little different in this episode. I'm gonna be interviewing Chris. As those of you who are regular listeners, you will know Chris is very passionate about leadership and workplace culture, and we're gonna dig in and find out where that passion for leadership and workplace culture comes from for Chris. So this is gonna be more of an in-depth look and personal conversation with Chris. Chris, before we dive mm-hmm. Into the questions that, uh, I would love to ask and I'm looking forward to our conversation. Before we do that for our listeners, can we [00:01:00] outline why this is the Achieve Workplace Culture Podcast, not the Achieve Leadership cul uh, podcast, but we're talking about leadership. So what's the connection between leadership and workplace culture? Just to set us up for the conversation. Chris: Yeah. Well, I mean, it's a very strong connection, right? Uh, one of the things that we often say when we, um, are talking about workplace culture, uh, with our clients is that culture. More often than, than not is a direct reflection on how an organization is led. So while everyone contributes to, uh, the workplace culture leaders have a disproportionate impact on the health of that culture, be it, um, uh, be it that it's whether it's healthy or not. So, um, how this fits in is leaders are really the primary conduits to the health, uh, and wellness of the workplace. Wendy: Yeah. So as, as people, our listeners are hearing you [00:02:00] talk about that, if you wanna create a good workplace, a healthy workplace culture, you should focus on leadership. That seems to be an important thread that you've identified. Chris: Absolutely. Again, there's multiple contributing factors, but the one that carries the most weight is, is how that organization has. Wendy: So Chris? Chris: Yeah. Wendy: Uh, myself, and I'm sure our listeners mm-hmm. Are very curious to hear when did leadership become such a personal passion for you? Chris: Yeah. Uh, it was a good question. Um, I don't think I can boil it down to the exact year. Uh, but I was, I was, in my career, I was kind of pushed into leadership roles or management roles at a very, um. Immature point in my career. And I don't mean that age-wise, I just mean I wasn't quite ready for a leadership role. I, I saw myself, I had visions of being in, in a, in a, in a leadership role, but I just kinda, I found myself in it one day and I spent probably the [00:03:00] better part of a decade just operating as I thought I. Um, and I liked being a leader and I liked people coming to me with their issues. And I enjoyed, uh, honestly a little bit of the status that it came with. I think back to where I was at. I liked the idea of it, but if I'm being honest, I don't think I really understood what it was. Wendy: Hmm. Chris: Uh, what it meant. Now. Um, one of the things that I'll just say that's very important to me, uh, as a person is, uh, I really value relationships. Um, and, um. Creating safety for people. So I really, um, like creating a, an environment where people are comfortable coming to talk to me with, but whatever that might be. So creating safety for people is important and, and really being helpful are two things that are really important to me, uh, just fundamentally, uh, the predates my, my leadership, uh, journey. Uh, so anyway, so I, I, I found myself in these leadership, uh, roles [00:04:00] and it was probably about 10 years in. Where I was asked a really simple question, and it was, what kind of leader do you want to be? And as simple as that is, I, I never really thought about it and I put, I put some thought and I came up with some amazing answers. And then I had this moment where I realized what I want, which was linked to being helpful, creating safety and creating comfort for people. And then I looked at the practices that I had been demonstrating. They weren't aligned. So in that moment, it became everything to me because I realized I had been operating outta step with who I am at my core. And it was, it was a tough little bit of, um, it was hard. It was a hard realization when I really looked in the mirror to say that what I wanted to be and how I was being were not the same. So I would say that's when it became really important to me. Important to you? Yeah. [00:05:00] Wendy: So it sounds like you came to your leadership role with a lot of natural tendencies, intuition. Yeah. Emotional intelligence. And so you found yourself in a leadership role and then all of a sudden you realized, oh, the kind of person I wanna be, the kind of impact that I wanna have on those that I'm leading isn't quite matching with what my hopes and aspirations are. Chris: Yeah. I'd say there was a huge gap between my intentions and my impact. And, and here's the thing, and this is. Will maybe link into what I'm, why, why I'm so passionate about what I do today is I wasn't operating in a way that was lined with who I am as a person. I was operating in a way that I thought I was supposed to as a leader, Wendy: right? ' Chris: cause I was modeling my behavior based off what I had seen before. Wendy: So sometimes the models that we have seen, yeah, our experience doesn't stand us in good stead to be the kind of leader that we wanna be. Our intentions might be there. But the results aren't [00:06:00] quite aligned. Right. Chris: Can. Right? Not that I hadn't worked with some great leaders, but when I think about just my perception of leadership at that point was just so fundamentally flawed. Wendy: Can you share a little bit about what those flawed Chris: Concepts were? Yeah. Like, you know, fear's a motivator, right? Like the carrot and stick thing. You know, if you don't get this sorted out, we're gonna be taking a serious look at your future in the organization. Kick the door closed sometimes so they know who's in charge. Wendy: Mm. Chris: Right. Kind of exert your power, all that sort of stuff. And so, and that's, you know me, that's not who I am, but that's how I felt I was needing to be. Right. And so, and, and it was probably about the misuse of power, I would say. That was what if we look back on leadership historically, not that there has not been great leaders, but it had been about. How do we leverage our power? Wendy: Yeah. Chris: Not necessarily in the healthiest ways. [00:07:00] Wendy: So that gap to you was, Chris: it's a huge, Wendy: a power differential that's there was a, and you thought that being a good leader meant that you showed your power, you exerted that in some way, whether that was small messages like your door closed or Chris: Yeah. Wendy: Whatever those messages were. How did you start to close that gap? you, first of all, you realized, Chris: yeah, that there was a Wendy: gap. Chris: So what happened? So I went through, I was asked that question. I realized, oh my gosh, I am not operating in a way that's aligned with my values. That's why it felt so bad. So it went, this is where my, everything changed for me in, my, I would say in my work journey with my own, my life, honestly, where I was just, I, had to really connect with how do I want to be as a leader? Starting with Then I started reflecting on my own practices. I recognized that gap was there. Then I started working, I started for the first time developing leadership skills. See, I was, you mentioned before I was put in the role 'cause I had leadership [00:08:00] qualities and I thought I had already arrived at that. If I'm, I don't want to, it sounds like I was being very arrogant, but I just didn't put much thought into it. And while I believe everyone has natural leadership skills and everyone has skills they need to work on So I, so when I, start to realize that. Maybe some of my, what I thought were strengths as over levered, levering and they were working against me. Other things like providing clarity for my team around what was most important, I was not very good at. So I started to work on my skills, uh, at that point. So that was the starting point. I looked at my intention, my what I perceived my impact to be, and started to close the gap through skill development. Now, this is important. What I thought my impact was, that was my own self-assessment. Where it got more significant for me was when I started talking to employees to find out how was I really being experienced as a leader, including past employees. Wendy: Oh, interesting. Chris: Yeah. That was a whole other depth of [00:09:00] my growth. Wendy: So you had your own perception of what your leadership impact was? Yeah. But you broadened that by reaching out to people. Asking what their experience was. Chris: Yeah. Wendy: So that you could identify for yourself where are the behaviors that need to change? Right. What do I need to do going forward Chris: Without, yeah, without question. I don't think I was ready at that time to have done, done that. I don't think my, my ego probably could've taken it, but once I started to, to dig in, I realized that I don't really know. That's why I started. Just having some good conversations. And fortunately, there were some people in my, in my sphere that were open and, and sharing, and it wasn't all bad, just to be clear. I I, I'm making it sound catastrophic, but I, there were some things that were, the blinders were there. And so once they were off that I need, now I didn't have a choice, now I need to do something about this. And that became about skill development, right? Wendy: Yeah. So you, you've already alluded to this a bit, but when leadership is done well Chris: yeah. Wendy: Um. How would you [00:10:00] describe that? What does healthy contributing leadership look like? So our listeners, as you're talking about closing the Gap, what were you aspiring to? Chris: Well, I think, I mean, I don't wanna overly simplify it, but it is, I've asked, um, I'm trying to think. I, I mean, I, I don't have a number on this, but thousands and thousands of leaders over the last decade, you know. How do you want to be experienced as a leader? What kind of leader do you want to be? Or any variation of that question? Wendy: Hmm. Chris: Shockingly not yet. One has said, I want to do harm. I want to screw my people up. Yeah. No one's ever said that. Um, so I think we actually know what good leadership looks like. Um, but the challenge becomes demonstrating it consistently. You know what I'm getting at. So it's so, uh, uh, so good leadership is about aligning [00:11:00] the actions that you take with the intentions that you have to yield the, to the extent possible, the impact that you desire, Wendy: right? Chris: Right. Because sitting there and just talking about the leader you want to be, that has, that doesn't impact anyone. You with me on that? Yes. So it's about making sure the actions that you're demonstrating, I think in a previous podcast. Eric, Eric could ask us, what kinda leader do you wanna be? And I talked about being congruent. I want my actions to be experienced in the way that I intend them to be. Make sense? Wendy: Yeah. There needs to be alignment. It's not just the story that we've decided, the great leader, we're in our head, but what are the behaviors that actually demonstrate and align with our concept of a healthy, a good leader? Right? On a really personal level, are there things in your current leadership journey that you're, you wrestle with that you find challenging? Chris: Oh yeah. [00:12:00] I mean, I think part of it is this realization that leadership, like any other job is, it's a practice. It's, you don't arrive at being a great leader. It is something that perpetually requires. Practice whether you are, um, you know, a musician, you, if you don't practice your instrument, you don't improve. And in some cases, if you don't practice, you, you, you take a backward slide or sport or anything like that. And so leadership, I don't view as the leader themselves, as I mentioned, asking a thousand people what kinda leader you wanna be. I've never, I've never heard someone say they wanna do harm. So the people are good. I've met a lot of good leaders. That's the leadership or the practice of it. Where the work comes in. Yeah. So I struggle depending on, on, um, where I'm at with various things, right? Like, sometimes I'm not providing the clarity I need [00:13:00] to provide, or sometimes I'm not building the connection with the people that are it, that I, I'm, I'm human, I'm in, influenced by what's going on in my life as well. So a big part of it is trying to stay, again, to the extent possible, aware of your impact. Through those signs that are around, there are signs throughout your day-to-day practice that could go, okay, you know what, maybe I'm not as clear over here as I need to be, or maybe I'm not as connected with this individual. So I, I struggle with a variety of things, but it depends on where I'm at at that time. But I think if I was to nail it down to one, the thing I work on the most, uh, that isn't natural for me is providing clarity around the things we need to do. I'm good at visioning. It's like providing the clarity around. So that's, that's something I, I focus a lot of attention on. Wendy: So you're very, you're trying to be aware of what your impact is. Yeah. You know, areas of focus, right? You're seeking feedback from other people. Clarity is an [00:14:00] area you're focused on. How, are there other ways that you are developing as a leader? Other things you do to learn? You talked about it being a journey. It's not a one and done. Are there some practices in your own development? Yeah. Chris: Well, so I make Wendy: use of, Chris: let me, uh, connect this to, I, I made the comment before about kinda work, but this is, this is really about life. I, I, when I went through that transformation around leadership and how I had been operating as a leader, that's where I started to learn about workplace culture. It was around that same time, uh, I had A-A-C-E-O at the organization I was working with that started to introduce me to this idea, and I recognized the impact that leaders have on the health of workplace culture. And, um, then I started looking at the health of the workplace in general. Um, not just in my own organization, just in the, the world. I was looking at sick leave that people were taking due to stress in the workplace and all of these things. It was all getting [00:15:00] worse. And I started to realize, man, people are getting sick at work and sometimes quite sick. And the leader. Has an impact on, has the biggest impact on that. That's why it became so important. But I want, I link this back to when he, as far as my how, how my leadership development when I realized the things I really needed to work on as a leader. And I've heard participants and workshops talk about you're really talking about how to be a good person. So I think about my skill development. I link that to my own personal development. Who do I want to be as a person? Someone you could have a conversation with, someone you could trust. So all those things I said earlier apply inside of work as, as much as they do outside of work. So I think about my leadership development. I think about developing myself as a, as a person and build those skills. 'cause I see them very closely integrated. So sometimes I'll [00:16:00] be developing something outside of work, but it's gonna influence work and vice versa. Wendy: Yeah. Oh, that's lovely. Who we are as a person becomes visible when we show up at work. Yeah. If we're kind and caring and perceptive and clear, all of those things. Chris: Yeah. Yeah. Wendy: Outside of work, it will be, it will show up at work and vice versa. If we're that way at Yeah. At work, it will also, Chris: yeah. Wendy: Show up in our personal lives. Chris, if there was something for our listeners that you, you wish that they knew about their influence in a leadership role? Oh yeah. What, is there something that jumps out for you? Chris: For sure, So as a leader, so what, like we're talking leadership. Leadership isn't a job, it's a responsibility. So this is if you're taking on a role and just to be clear, it's okay not to want to do that. Not to be responsible. For others in your work. That's, there's nothing wrong with that. In fact, the sooner [00:17:00] you figure that out, the better. There is lots of individual contributors that are necessary in the workforce. Not everyone needs to be in a leadership role. because unfortunately, naturally the only way you excel usually is if you get into a leadership role. That's not for everyone. And sometimes the most caring thing you could do is realize that's not how I work. I don't wanna do that. But recognize that whether you want it or not. You have an impact on people and not just at work, you impact them outside of work, right? Because the experiences that people have at work, you know, if the day isn't going well, we generally bring things home with us, right? So when I think back to my early days in a leadership role and I was creating tension for people at work. Changing roles on people not providing the clear they needed to coming down hard on them unnecessarily. They went home in a different way and [00:18:00] can. So this is to me, why I do what I do is I wanna create healthy workplaces that are profitable and all that good stuff. But what I want is people going home at the end of the day in better shape. So when they reintroduce themselves to their families or their communities, they're in better shape. So I think if there's something I want leaders to know is don't underestimate. The impact that you have and it's not just now. People will, we've seen examples. If you think about maybe some people that are listening have had, have worked in, unhealthy environments, it doesn't just affect you then it affects you for years. Wendy: It does. Chris: So leaders, we, have an obligation to recognize the responsibility we have. And this is not about pumping ourselves up to be more than we are. We either are prepared to take that responsibility seriously or we're not. And if we aren't, that's okay then. Don't lead people, do the, other aspect of the work. Wendy: Find what your contribution is in your organization. Chris: Yes. Yeah. Wendy: Chris, we're coming to the end of our [00:19:00] time here together. Sure. If you had one tidbit idea concept for our listeners who are leaders to think about going into whatever is next for them, what would that be? Chris: So I'll share a couple of things. One, I wanna highlight this to be, because I've talked pretty intensely about this. First of all, go easy on yourself, right? Acknowledge the responsibility you have, but go easy on yourself. Everything that you know, we talk about, we need to strive to do to the extent possible, there is going to be days when we're low on resources, there's going to be days when we just, we are frustrated, and that's okay. Dust yourself off and come back in shape. So I wanted just to highlight, to go easy on, on yourself because it is a big responsibility and we're never gonna get it right a hundred percent of the time. Right? Um, so first of all, go easy on, on yourself. Um, [00:20:00] and always think about what you can be doing to improve because we just, we don't ry, but don't worry about a major thing. When I think about what finally got me going in my development journey, it was not I, I went through that initial transformation where I was, I was crushed, and I probably was not very productive for a good stretch of time, that wasn't helpful. What became helpful was I started doing incremental things. One thing, start asking better questions, work on that skill. So even go from a pick a skill that you might wanna get better at, like coaching. What is a micro skill within that greater skill that you can start doing? Just start doing that and then add more and add more. So keep growing, but go easy on yourself in the process. Wendy: Lovely. Thank you Chris. And I will say, Chris, you, you are an example of a leader who actually exemplifies those things about being aware of your impact, caring for [00:21:00] people, recognizing that you have influence both at work and people leave and it impacts their home. And, uh, that is really not a small thing. So thank you for sharing a bit of your journey, uh, with all of us listeners as well as myself, and, uh, to all of you who chose to join us here today. Thank you for spending your time with us. Outro: Looking for free resources, training, and consulting in the areas of leadership and workplace culture. Be sure to check out achieve center.com. That's achieve C-E-N-T-R e.com.