Eric 0:00 Matt, welcome to episode 59 of the achieve workplace culture podcast, where we help you find actionable ways to strengthen your workplace culture. Today, we're going to talk about vulnerability and leadership, but we're going to put a few caveats around it. I think I've heard the two of you talking recently, and you have some question marks about the word vulnerability. So the people I'm talking to, Chris Downey, Wendy Lohan, my regular co host today, so welcome here to the both of you. I want to start with some word association with the two of you. Do you mind? Sure word is vulnerability? What pops into your head when you hear that word? Just a couple words, Wendy 0:40 wound, wound wounded open, Eric 0:44 let's do another one. Wounded open. I weak. Is one that comes into Wendy 0:52 my mind, yeah? Emotional, emotional, touchy feely. Eric 0:57 Exposed, exposed, yeah, lots of lots of things that we can associate with vulnerability, and yet there has been a movement right in the last 10 to 15 years, pop has been saying that we as leaders need to be willing to express vulnerability. Sure, I can imagine there's a fair number of leaders out there who are thinking about that word and associating it with some of the more negative words we just came up with here. So I wonder if we should start this podcast by doing a quick why are we talking about vulnerability in the leadership space? Who popularized that? And then let's talk about what we think vulnerability is should be and what it shouldn't be. Brene Brown Wendy 1:38 has a fantastic TED talk on vulnerability. She's written many books. She talks about vulnerability, and I think there's been a misunderstanding of her work in some arenas where vulnerability has been has come to be seen as sharing over sharing, the emotional component of your own experience as a leader, and so I think it's important to talk about because I do believe in vulnerability in your work environment, but I think we need to be careful about how we define what that is, for sure. Chris 2:12 Yeah, I think Renee Brown's definitely popularized it, for sure, and probably taken it. I think vulnerability in the leadership sphere has been talked about even pre dating them, Brene Brown's public work, but I think what Ray Brown's made it more popular? Eyes, yeah, but I know in leader, yes, and just does a wonderful job of it. But I think in leadership, vulnerability or being being vulnerable is at the sort the root of building trust, right? So in leader, from a leadership perspective, it's hard to really build trust with somebody if you're not prepared to be vulnerable. That's kind of where that was, where I first learned that context, where that idea of to really trust somebody is is at a true level, there's vulnerability based, whereas in many cases, I think this is Patrick Lencioni that talked about this predictive trust. I know how Eric's gonna react, right by trust. I know how he's gonna react. That's because I can predict your behavior based on my experiences. That's not really trust. I'm just predicting behavior. Interesting. Vulnerability based trust is trust on a much deeper level. Wendy 3:15 Yeah. And I mean, I think of vulnerability as the ability, the courage, the willingness to show up, to be present when the outcomes aren't certain, whether that's the reaction from your team, a process, a system you're redesigning, a project you're working on, but you have the courage, the vulnerability, to step into that conversation and engage with an uncertain outcome. Wow. Eric 3:42 Okay, so vulnerability can be about our willingness to show up when there's uncertainty. And Chris, I think what you're talking about is adjacent to that and also important, which is more about being real. Chris 3:58 Yeah, that, that to me, is that when we really get into this. I know we're talking about this in the leadership context, but you know, to be vulnerable is to be real, to really be authentic. Here's here's what I'm dealing with now. And I think if you use Brene Brown's work, not to armor up, right, right? So I think, and so in any relationship, you know, a work relationship, a romantic relationship, the moment we're armored up, we're not being real. So if we really want to build true trust is and safety, it's being able to be real and have that realness not taken advantage of, right? So this is where this is, this is where it gets so touchy that I think so to me, being vulnerable is ultimately being being real interesting and unarmored, okay? But the question becomes, Eric 4:53 is that a good idea? Yeah, where and when, right? Wendy 4:56 Yeah, and and I think that that shows up in a lot of different ways. And as in a leadership position, and it is about being real, but it isn't just about the emotional component of our experience in leadership. So I think about innovation and being vulnerable and innovation. As a leader, you're walking into a space where the outcomes are not guaranteed. You don't know what the end result is going to be. As a leader, you are giving shape to whatever this is going to be, and to be vulnerable in that is to say, I'm not sure what the outcome might be. I want us to work on this together. I don't have all the answers. I want the contribution of the team. So it's not just and I think that's where the misunderstanding of what vulnerability has been. It's important to be emotionally real with our team, to an extent, yeah, and, but it also translates into a lot of different other areas. Chris 5:55 Well, let's, let's, let's riff on that for a minute. I agree with you. To me, being vulnerable is a is about being real fundamentally. Now that's not just emotionally real, that's real. Let's just be authentic in the moment. What are we dealing with? So I think it's but it needs to be appropriate for the situation. So as you mentioned, when if we think about being vulnerable within the work context, that could be about admitting mistakes or I'm uncertain, that's being real. But that doesn't mean here's everything I'm dealing with, here's all my emotional baggage. So I think the to me, the definition still applies. But where appropriate? You know, getting at earn the Eric 6:33 appropriate I'm a listener. How do I know what's actually appropriate? What? What's what level of realness or vulnerability? Is it like I am terrified that if we do this, things aren't going to work out. The workplace is going to suffer. People are going to lose their jobs. That might be real for a leader out there is that what you share? How do you know what you share? You know Chris 6:58 I would. I think let's talk about the role of leadership. I think this is where we want to use this, maybe to anchor the conversation. Because vulnerability shows up in all aspects of life and and we can, we can dig into that. But I think in the context of leadership, I think Wendy, something you've talked about, perhaps being over interpreted. I think leaders have accepted I need to be vulnerable. But in some cases, come in and say, I'm terrified. I have no idea where things are going, right, and now you're causing fear amongst your employees. But it's like, why is this being real? I think it needs to be relative to the to the con, like, what's your role as a leader? And one of the things we need to be as leaders is to be calm, right? And even a bit optimistic, even in the face of adversity. So it's one thing to acknowledge concern, but we need to be careful about what are we doing with our vulnerability? Is our as a leader? Is our vulnerability helping somebody grow, or is that for us? Right? This is the key. I think what we see a lot of leaders doing is over sharing, and what they do is, then, all of a sudden, we put our problems onto our employees, even if it's a personal problem, and it's not our employees responsibility to actually care for our well being. It's nice when they do, but it's not their responsibility, but it is ours of theirs. So I think we need to be careful that being vulnerable and I might be terrified. But what I'm going to share with this this group, is this going to help them, or is this going to hinder their ability to be successful? I think that is kind of where the boundaries need to be set. And I think you could say I'm concerned, without coming in saying, I'm freaking out. I have no idea what's happening. Yeah? Wendy 8:44 Because that's that's putting our insecurities that we need to work with or work through, right? We need to work through that in another platform. Chris 8:53 Yep, and that's not important. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Eric 8:57 People are different. People come from different walks of life. Yeah, some of us are from a demographic like me, European descent, white, tall, well educated. Had all the opportunities that I could want. Handsome. I'm very lucky throw that in there too. And which handsome, so all of these things. Is it different for me to express vulnerability as a leader and maybe as a CEO in an organization than for somebody who is a junior leader from identified minority, person of color, whatever? What's it like? Does it feel different to that person, and is it different? Should we have different expectations? Wendy 9:45 Yeah, I think this links to what we were talking about earlier, a CEO coming in and being uncertain of the future and voicing that in a very emotional way is not what we're talking. About when we talk about vulnerability, and as a CEO, as someone in a leadership position, there is certain privilege that comes with that, that in a way, it's easier for us to be vulnerable, because the repercussions of that are not quite so weighty as someone from a different demographic, maybe a cultural background, even the power differential between male and female. All of that plays into is it actually safe to be vulnerable, Eric 10:32 and I probably feel safer than most in my Chris 10:35 role, yeah, when you nailed it there, and I think that's the key. I think in certain situations, having the ability to be vulnerable, in and of itself, is a privilege, and I think this is where part of some of the pushback has go, because there becomes an expectation we'll just be vulnerable. It's like, well, for some people, that's not safe, right? For you know, a marginalized group, or you know, folks that are oppressed, putting yourself out there could have some pretty serious consequences. So I think this is it's one thing to be vulnerable, but we need to create conditions where it truly is safe, where for people to be appropriately vulnerable relative to that situation. And I agree what we often see, when you see the click bait on LinkedIn, it's often people in a place of privilege. It's kind of like people saying, well, we need to speak up. This is terrible. What's happening? Some people stay silent, right? Well, no, you need to use your voice. Well, what if it's life or death? Yeah, I'm gonna stay silent right now, because I need to protect you. I'm getting at I think sometimes those of us, like you said, Erica, the CEO, or in a position of privilege, it's a lot easier to do. I think the expectation needs to be relevant to the individual and the situation. Wendy 11:50 Yeah, and when you say relevant to the individual, we wouldn't want our listeners to go away here thinking that what they should do is, you know, share, I'm, you know, wondering about the outcome. I'm not sure how to proceed. Sometimes your leaders will respond negatively to that, and that will have repercussions for an, you know, a staff member because their culture, their work environment, it's not welcomed. Vulnerability is not something that is, is a part of their culture, agreed. Chris 12:24 So let's maybe think about this, bring this back to the context of leadership. How do we use it in an appropriate way, in the leadership context? Yeah, I think what, what I'm hearing here is that as leaders, it's important that we admit our mistakes. That is a sign of vulnerability, but not just admitting our mistakes. Working on a plan to address that, right? Because you can only show up so many times. Like, man, I screwed up, and you keep saying that over and over, you know, sooner or later, your team or your boss, you'll start to question your ability, but also share the challenges. Like Eric, you mentioned the example about being scared, that's okay. I think sharing challenges and actually inviting input is what we want to do there, right, but done in an appropriate way for the group. What's your role in that room as a leader? If your role is to create conditions where people feel safe, then maybe the panic button isn't what we should be pushing in this moment, but it's highlighting some of the concerns and inviting input. And then again, I think the key third piece I see here is be you. Be real, yeah, but with boundaries, again, that links back to that position. Those are the kind of the three that pop to mind for me, for leadership well, and when Wendy 13:37 I think about vulnerability, there's so many ways that we can express it in a positive way. Sharing our own learning journey is another way that I see leaders often want to look like they have it all together. They know, you know, they know what they need to know, as opposed to, you know, being vulnerable and say, I'm working on this. Here's my Learning Plan. Here's what I'm in diving into. Eric 14:01 Yes, exactly i to me, if I were to sort of try to summarize what we've said, it feels like what we ought to be thinking about is how to show up as real people, not a an armored version of ourselves, but with the caveat that we understand that depending on the safety in your organization, the safety for you, given where you are within that and who you are as a person, we understand that that's going to look different for different people, but being vulnerable is about being ourselves, about being fully human with other people. I am learning. I have made mistakes. I understand that you may make them too, and that creates that environment of trust that we're looking for in the workplace, where we can work together, forgive each other, and grow together. Yeah. Chris 14:52 One thing to add, Eric, as you mentioned, it just popped. As you said, that around vulnerability, if someone gifts us with maybe they're coming to. Yes and saying, I've made a mistake, return that vulnerability with some yourself. You know what? I made this mistake as well. Me too. How comforting is that to hear the moment that happens? Because often something's coming to us with that, return that with that. I think that's that's an exchange that I think what we actually started talking about is builds trust. Yes, that, to me, is the power that vulnerability can play a Eric 15:25 final word to you. Wendy, Wendy 15:26 final words, be present. Be grounded. Be real. Think about how, as a leader, you're contributing to the well being of your culture. And create a container where people can do the same. They can be real. They can be grounded. They can show up. Eric 15:43 And with that, that's conclusion of our episode. We'll see you next time on The achieve workplace culture podcast. You.